Wardogs

[johnmck]

Anyone else find wardogs to be OP? I usually get 300+ kills with each unit. I'm running some unit size increases but I'm pretty sure its a vanilla problem. If they left the battle after charging one unit, instead of destroying the entire backline, it would be a bit more fair. If you guys haven't jumped on the bagwagon yet though its never too late

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

tbh i don't think these should be units at all, even if some culture might have taken some dogs with them to the battlefield

[johnmck]

I dunno I kind of like the idea behind them, especially with barbarian factions that were reliant on ambushing their foes. And i haven't seen any mods yet that actually remove them.

[Humble Warrior]

Anyone else find wardogs to be OP? I usually get 300+ kills with each unit. I'm running some unit size increases but I'm pretty sure its a vanilla problem. If they left the battle after charging one unit, instead of destroying the entire backline, it would be a bit more fair. If you guys haven't jumped on the bagwagon yet though its never too late

While dogs are kinda neat to see on the battlefield, I don`t believe there`s any evidence of packs of these things in historical reality.

But, dogs wouldn`t just attack one man of the enemy and then run away. They keep at it until dead, especially these type of attack dogs which are trained this way. You have to kill them, to stop them. They don`t seem overpowered to me, they AI used them to attacked in a siege and they were pretty easily desptached. Just clck on them to focus the men on the dogs.

[Bramborough]

I dunno, maybe they're powerful in the hands of the player, I've never used them. AI wardogs certainly aren't OP; I'm usually happy to see early barbarian armies with lots of dog units.

[johnmck]

I think what the problem is that a lot of times the AI units won't even respond to dogs attacking them, they will just continue on towards their intended target. Since they are then considered "moving" they quickly get slaughtered. Of course charging head first into spears wont go well but its way to easy to game the system.

here's a good vid explaining part of the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6vKn9uNZs

[wulfgar610]

The problem is that it is just plain ridiculous. The sad side of total war is CA's lack of devotion to what was feasible period combat. Certainly there are great difficulties with Ancients and one could never expect perfection. But CA simply panders to nonsense. I don't bother to make this complaint much because the condition is hopeless.

[stevehoos]

The problem is that it is just plain ridiculous. The sad side of total war is CA's lack of devotion to what was feasible period combat. Certainly there are great difficulties with Ancients and one could never expect perfection. But CA simply panders to nonsense. I don't bother to make this complaint much because the condition is hopeless.

Exactly, plus rep. It's not as redoubtably absurd as hurling bees, but it's close.

[johnmck]

I'm not sure why their inclusion is absurd. Apparently even Attila himself used war dogs in his campaigns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_warfare

I don't have any problem with them being in the game, just don't want them to be an exploit.

[RedGuard]

I'm not sure why their inclusion is absurd. Apparently even Attila himself used war dogs in his campaigns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_warfare

I don't have any problem with them being in the game, just don't want them to be an exploit.

yep. He called them "his girls" lol.


just kidding thats absolutely absurd.

[wulfgar610]

I don't have any problem with them being in the game, just don't want them to be an exploit.

Dogs are a tool of war along with other animals. They could certainly be used in the pursuit of fleeing men, they could be used to control prisoners. They could even be used to haul carts. But for starters attack dogs of such caliber are expensively trained animals. The cost input would be too high to do it on this scale. Attack dogs were the toy of a wealthy warrior on a small scale, for starters he'd have to employ a full time handler for every few dogs. And it would take years of training. Whereas with a human you can make something out of them with minimal training. Dogs eat meat where as humans can be kept going from numerous sources. Hence supplying food for dogs on scale would be more difficult on campaign.

Their application in a line battle would be limited to the psychological. They could certainly be used to scare men who are about to break.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

They would work better as "Deployables" during an ambush or something, similar to giant flaming balls.

I mean, I don't have a problem with them as they are, but that would be more realistic.

[johnmck]

Did you guys even check that link lol? Attila did according to the author tom newton: k9 history the dogs of war. And it also says that: Often war dogs would be sent into battle with large protective spiked metal collars and coats of mail armor

[Darios]

No one is denying that dogs were used for military purposes in antiquity but doesn't change the fact that CA's dog fetish is almost as big as its catapult/onager fetish))

[shirepartial]

I love setting them on the damn Hun horse archers... really good at clearing things up when every ones exhausted, also inflicts massive casualties when enemies white flag.

[gregnaar]

Have you seen large onagers kill 2 unit with a volley while they are in formation? Or crossbowman killing roman spearman in testudo in like 1 minute? I dont even understand how can they shoot precisely over a house/wall with a crossbow and hit their target. I mean with a bow you can control the arch of the arrows, but i dont think you can do that with crossbows.
Warhounds are only a pain if they manage to reach your skirmishers. but not OP.
A large onager can get 1500 kills with explosive shots if you fire into great blobs. That is op and stupid.

[wulfgar610]

I dont even understand how can they shoot precisely over a house/wall with a crossbow and hit their target. I mean with a bow you can control the arch of the arrows, but i dont think you can do that with crossbows.
.

Well, shooting over a nearby structure might be extreme, but crossbows along with everything else have trajectory. Even musket balls after 100 yards start to develop a significant drop. My annoyance with Attila crossbows is not the issue of their existence because they certainly existed. But they have power comparable to the late medieval weapon which was a product of superior metallurgy.

[gregnaar]

Well, shooting over a nearby structure might be extreme, but crossbows along with everything else have trajectory. Even musket balls after 100 yards start to develop a significant drop. My annoyance with Attila crossbows is not the issue of their existence because they certainly existed. But they have power comparable to the late medieval weapon which was a product of superior metallurgy.

I dont have any knowledge on the matter, it is just hard to imagine, as you cant control the speed of the arrow, so you have to shoot almost straight up, and hope to hit something on the other side that you cant even see. In theory slingers should be able to do that too, but they cant do that in the game.

[Humble Warrior]

Well, shooting over a nearby structure might be extreme, but crossbows along with everything else have trajectory. Even musket balls after 100 yards start to develop a significant drop. My annoyance with Attila crossbows is not the issue of their existence because they certainly existed. But they have power comparable to the late medieval weapon which was a product of superior metallurgy.

This is a bit of a strawman because EVERYTHING gradually drops to earth, even a supersonic bullet. The point is whether you`d be able to use a crossbow like that in any realistic combat sense, which you couldn`t. I certainly have not read of any crossbows being used like that.

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

This is a bit of a strawman because EVERYTHING gradually drops to earth, even a supersonic bullet. The point is whether you`d be able to use a crossbow like that in any realistic combat sense, which you couldn`t. I certainly have not read of any crossbows being used like that.

It would be way cooler if crossbows couldn't, like in M2, so you needed to strategically place them on a hill or on the front line