"It is not genocide!!" - Turkey is furious again about international comments of Armenian 'Genocide'

[Odenat]

"But perhaps most damning evidence of all is that Armenians essentially disappeared from much of the Ottoman empire. If there was no genocide, where did they go?"

Well, 100 years ago, millions of Turkish were living at Greece and Bulgaria. If there was no genocide, where did they go? We can expand this question for every nation, aren't we? Those stupid articles tell nothing. They said that there are plenty of evidences and can not show one

And New York Times covered the story as it was happening ??? Isn't U.S.A. at war with Ottoman Empire during WW1? I really wonder how can American journalists traveled to Eastern Anatolia and watch the events. And mass graves, there are plenty of mass graves, yes, but they belong to Muslim citizens that Armenians massacred. And the funny thing is, Armenians opened a few places they called mass grave and found Quran books laying with the corpses! Of course, that's why Armenia does not open its archives.

Do you believe this? Armenia accuse Turkey of genocide and refuse to open its archives. Instead, it uses propaganda.

http://www.dailysabah.com/multimedia...th-anniversary

[hellheaven1987]

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/22/8465257/armenian-genocide

But perhaps most damning evidence of all is that Armenians essentially disappeared from much of the Ottoman empire. If there was no genocide, where did they go?

They went to Turkish Oklahoma, oh wait I mean Syria.

And New York Times covered the story as it was happening ???

Yes, New York Times actually had pretty extensive reports about this event from 1915 to 1917.

[Odenat]

Yes, New York Times actually had pretty extensive reports about this event from 1915 to 1917.

While USA was actively supporting allies against Germany and its allies? Or while Ottoman Empire and USA at war? I'm sure we can definetely "trust" these reports (!)

[removeduser_487563287433]

So where did they go?

[hellheaven1987]

While USA was actively supporting allies against Germany and its allies? Or while Ottoman Empire and USA at war? I'm sure we can definetely "trust" these reports (!)

Except Turks were not in war against American until 1917, nor did Wilson support Entente's war effort during WWI as bias and active as FDR during WWII before US entered the war itself.

[alhoon]

Well, 100 years ago, millions of Turkish were living at Greece and Bulgaria.

Populations exchange. It's recorded where they went and covered by treaties.

Where did the Armenians go? Where are the treaties?

[Arto]

"But perhaps most damning evidence of all is that Armenians essentially disappeared from much of the Ottoman empire. If there was no genocide, where did they go?"

Well, 100 years ago, millions of Turkish were living at Greece and Bulgaria. If there was no genocide, where did they go? We can expand this question for every nation, aren't we? Those stupid articles tell nothing. They said that there are plenty of evidences and can not show one

Oh no, not that argument again. You can't compare ethnic cleansing to genocide: EC is incidentally unlike a genocide, which is fully industrialized killing.

And New York Times covered the story as it was happening ??? Isn't U.S.A. at war with Ottoman Empire during WW1? I really wonder how can American journalists traveled to Eastern Anatolia and watch the events.

The US declared war against Germany on April 6th, 1917. Almost 2 years since the start of the genocide and to make things even more complicated: the US never officially declared war against the Ottomans, only on Germany and AH. The journalists weren't the main source, the missionaries were. Even so, they had a free right to travel.

And mass graves, there are plenty of mass graves, yes, but they belong to Muslim citizens that Armenians massacred. And the funny thing is, Armenians opened a few places they called mass grave and found Quran books laying with the corpses! Of course, that's why Armenia does not open its archives.

I'm calling shenanigans on this, this just as absurd as the story that the Ottoman soldiers used to cut the belly's of pregnant women.

Do you believe this? Armenia accuse Turkey of genocide and refuse to open its archives. Instead, it uses propaganda.

http://www.dailysabah.com/multimedia...th-anniversary

The documents in the archives stretch from irrelevant (The "call for peace" made by Hungarian feminists) to not helpful (payment of 1,000 liras made to an Armenian hospital in Istanbul? How about a donation to any Armenian institution in Adana, Van or Kars?).

[PointOfViewGun]

Bernard Lewis, the well know orientalist scholar, you mean.

So?

Strong piece from Vox today:

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/22/8465257/armenian-genocide

So where did they go?

"Where did they go?" Is this not a very ignorant question to ask a hundred years after it happened? The assumption in that question is that just because they're no longer in their original location they must have been killed. Do I get murdered each time I leave my house?

However, it's quite easy to point out where they went. Throughout the war, Armenians fled to Russia (and what is now Armenia) or other Allied states. Those that were successfully relocated to Syria soon left as the region came under Allied control. How many were there in 1921-1922, foreign documents point that out:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Over 800 thousand Armenians are given as refugees from Turkey.

What else? "US publications like the New York Times, covered the story as it was happening." Indeed, they did. In many occasions they covered them at a speed of modern times. Often, the news pieces in such media sources would report of incidents claimed to be happening a day before publication from regions that have the infrastructure to convey the messages, i.e. telegram. Justin McCarthy explains this phenomenon in detail in this lecture starting at 5:40.

Hence, it creates a bunch of fake news pieces:

The Turkish Myth

The age-old charge against the Turks is of course the Armenian massacres. A journalist not long since tabulated the reports of these massacres in recent years and showed that they totaled thirty-five million slain. As the whole Armenian population is known never to have exceeded three million, there is obviously a case of falsification somewhere.

Letter from Dr. James L. Barton to Admiral Mark L. Bristol

With reference to the false reports that come through reporting massacres of the Armenians by the Turks, there is no one who can deprecate this more than I do. But there is a situation over here which is hard to describe. There is a brilliant young Armenian, a graduate of Yale University, by the name of Cardashian. He is a lawyer, with office down in Wall Street, I believe. He has organized a committee, so-called, which has never met and is never consulted, with Mr. Gerard as Chairman. Cardashian is the whole thing. He has set up what he calls an Armenian publicity bureau or something of that kind, and has a letterhead printed. Gerard signs anything that Cardashian writes. He told me this himself one time. Cardashian is out with his own people and with everybody else, except Gerard and perhaps one other leading Armenian who was in London a month ago, Pasdermadjian. Not long since Cardashian came out with a pamphlet in which he charged the Near East Relief and the American missionaries as being the greatest enemies Armenia has ever had, claiming that they, in cooperation with President Wilson, had crucified Armenia, and a lot of other matter of this character. He claims to have the latest and fullest information out from Armenia and keeps in pretty close touch with Senator Lodge, the President, the State Department, and others in Washington. He has Gerard's backing. We have had many a conference with Armenian leaders as to what can be done to stop this vicious propaganda carried on by Cardashian. He is constantly reporting atrocities which never occurred and giving endless misinformation with regard to the situation in Armenia and in Turkey. We do not like to come out and attack him in public. That would injure the whole cause we are all trying to serve, because people would say that we are quarreling among ourselves and would lose confidence in the whole concern. We have tried in the New York office to give publicity to nothing we did not have every reason to believe to be correct. We are therefore trying to keep controversial matters out and only keep before the public the actual needs in Armenia.

I've already provided quite a bit on Henry Morgenthau so I won't repost them.

The article talks of mass graves. When you question this claim the common response is that "oh Turkish government is hiding them". Basically, a self-fulfilling claim. However, back then the empire came under full control of the Allied powers. There should have been foreign records of them at least from that era. How does a mass grave prove genocide though? Genocide is primarily about intent. Turkish government itself points out that many died.

We have reports like this as well:
Notes by the Legation Councillor in the Foreign Office Rosenberg

Berlin, 1 October 1915All of the arguments which speak for considerate treatment of the Armenian population in Turkey were presented forcefully today to the Council of the Turkish Embassy. Because of the persecution and annihilation of the Armenian element, in Turkey one of the mainstays of commerce and industry, Turkey itself was most severely injured economically. The news concerning the persecution of the Armenians caused a great stir not only in hostile, but also in neutral countries abroad and was detrimental to the Turkish government’s reputation. A lively unrest was beginning to make itself noticed in philanthropic circles in Germany.


Edhem Bey promised to speak to the ambassador and also to report to Constantinople. He admitted that riots had taken place, even if the news that was spread abroad was grossly exaggerated. Until the spring of this year there had been quite a good relationship between the Armenians and the Turks, all the more explained by the fact that during the period of revolution the Armenians had sympathised with the Committee and together they had taken action against the old regime. A drastic change had first come about in April, when the Armenians revolted behind the Turkish army during the Turkish advance on Azerbaijan, during which no fewer than 180000 Mohammedans were killed. Thus, it was not surprising that the Mohammedans had taken their revenge for this. The removal of the Armenians into the interior was necessary for military reasons and in the interest of Turkey’s self-preservation. If attacks had been carried out during this, they were most certainly disapproved of by the central government. Unfortunately, because of the large spatial distances and the primitive conditions of the empire, the central government was not always in a position to prevent clumsiness and carelessness in the lower authorities.

Emphasis is mine. Before anyone jumps in the 180 thousand figure is not a soldier figure. The Ottoman army that operated in that region barely numbered around 60 thousand. There bound to be mass graves containing bodies from all sides.

If what I'm posting here is not historical evidence, what is?

Populations exchange. It's recorded where they went and covered by treaties.

Where did the Armenians go? Where are the treaties?

Please read above.

[Odenat]

Populations exchange. It's recorded where they went and covered by treaties.

Where did the Armenians go? Where are the treaties?

Nice try... Lausann treaty was at 1923 and by that time, no Turkish was left at Crete, Mora or Thesselia! I ask again; where did the Turkish of Mora, Crete and Thesselia gone? Yes, let's speak of genocide my Greek friends.

It's very easy to trace the Armenians. They went to USA, France and Syria. Where do you think millions of Armenians living in these countries came from? Or, do you think they came from space?

As you can see at the above post, Setekh is offering plenty of evidence. Where are your evidences guys? You can show nothing, just words and propaganda.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's very easy to trace the Armenians. They went to USA, France and Syria. Where do you think millions of Armenians living in these countries came from? Or, do you think they came from space?

Since it's so easy would you provide a source? Arguing that the Armenian Genocide never occurred because Armenians live in America is as outright evil as saying the holocaust never happened because Israel exists.

As you can see at the above post, Setekh is offering plenty of evidence. Where are your evidences guys? .

Well, the Ottoman Interior Minister explicitly said they were ethnically cleansing Anatolia of Armenians, for starters:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...enian-genocide

As the Minister of Interior told the American ambassador, “We will not have Armenians anywhere in Anatolia. They can live in the desert, but nowhere else."

That Mehmet Talat explicitly ordered their expulsion under the paranoid justification Christians sympathised with Russians:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...aal/the-g-word

Talat ordered the deportation of almost the entire people to the arid deserts of Syria. In the process, at least half of the men were killed by Turkish security forces or marauding Kurdish tribesmen. Women and children survived in greater numbers but endured appalling depredation, abductions, and rape on the long marches. 


That we have many eye witness accounts, i.e. the US Ambassador:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/morgenthau.html

"a campaign of race extermination is in progress."

The evidence for the Armenia Genocide is overwhelming, it's bizarre to try and argue it never happened.

[alhoon]

Please read above.

Oh come on! That was a huge post! I have work to do. I just read the part about the 800K Armenian refugees.
I've told you so in the past: Yes, I believe the figures are exaggerated but killing hundreds of thousands, including civilians to quell unrest is a form of genocide.
Death-marches is also a form of genocide.

Nice try... Lausann treaty was at 1923 and by that time, no Turkish was left at Crete, Mora or Thesselia! I ask again; where did the Turkish of Mora, Crete and Thesselia gone? Yes, let's speak of genocide my Greek friends.

You are wrong. Turks left Crete with the Lausanne Treaty and there were about 10%-15% in here. In Morea? They've been kicked out unceremoniously during the 19th century.
Thessalia? No idea when they left. I would also assume that since we were at war in 1897 they have been getting out quite fast and that in 1923 very few would have been left to leave with the population exchange. I could be wrong though.

[Odenat]

Since it's so easy would you provide a source? Arguing that the Armenian Genocide never occurred because Armenians live in America is as outright evil as saying the holocaust never happened because Israel exists.



Well, the Ottoman Interior Minister explicitly said they were ethnically cleansing Anatolia of Armenians, for starters:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...enian-genocide



That Mehmet Talat explicitly ordered their expulsion under the paranoid justification Christians sympathised with Russians:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...aal/the-g-word



That we have many eye witness accounts, i.e. the US Ambassador:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/morgenthau.html



The evidence for the Armenia Genocide is overwhelming, it's bizarre to try and argue it never happened.

lol, you are posting newspapers articles? And they are about Armenian teenagers who say "My grandma was crying everyday when she sits near the window at our New York house"

Where are those evidences you mentiones? At the American newspapers? Or at a website named "armenian-genocide.org" ???

And the U.S. ambassador is an eye-witness? Setekh already posted the evidence that he never left Istanbul during his time. A great lol to you.

[PointOfViewGun]

Since it's so easy would you provide a source? Arguing that the Armenian Genocide never occurred because Armenians live in America is as outright evil as saying the holocaust never happened because Israel exists.
Well, the Ottoman Interior Minister explicitly said they were ethnically cleansing Anatolia of Armenians, for starters:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...enian-genocide
That Mehmet Talat explicitly ordered their expulsion under the paranoid justification Christians sympathised with Russians:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...aal/the-g-word
That we have many eye witness accounts, i.e. the US Ambassador:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/morgenthau.html
The evidence for the Armenia Genocide is overwhelming, it's bizarre to try and argue it never happened.

Pathetic. Truly pathetic. You've been presented evidence proving your earlier material and suggestion wrong and you simply choose to ignore it. What you do is not worthy of respect. You argue that "arguing that the Armenian Genocide never occurred because Armenians live in America is as outright evil as saying the holocaust never happened because Israel exists." A moment ago you were asking where all the Armenians were.

The unreferenced statement from the Ottoman minister of interior to the U.S. ambassador, can only be found in the article you provide on the internet. Not on a study, or a book.

Again, your unreferenced statement on Mehmet Talat is from an opinion piece of a journalist, not a historian. Your claim of Talat "explicitly ordering" their expulsion under the paranoid justification Christians sympathized with Russians has no real evidence that backs it up.

What an actual expert on the matter says, from Edward J. Erickson's The Armenian Relocations and Ottoman National Security: Military Necessity or Excuse for Genocide?:

With respect to the question of whether the relocation was necessary for reason of Ottoman national security in the First World War, the answer is clearly yes. There was a direct threat by the small but capable Armenian revolutionary committees to the lines of communications upon which the logistics of the Ottoman armies on three fronts depended. There was a real belief by the government that the consequences of failing to supply adequately its armies that were contact with the Russians, in particular, surely would lead to the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman high command believed it could not take that chance. Pressed by the imperative of national survival to implement an immediate counterinsurgency strategy and operational solution, and in the absence of traditionally available large-scale military forces, the Ottomans chose a strategy based on relocation—itself a highly effective practice pioneered by the Great Powers. The relocation of the Armenian population and the associated destruction of the Armenian revolutionary committees ended an immediate existential threat to the Ottoman state. Although the empire survived to fight on until late 1918 unfortunately thousands of Armenians did not survive the relocation. Correlation is not causation and the existing evidence suggests that the decisions leading to the Armenian relocations in 1915 were reflexive, escalatory, and militarily necessary, rather than simply a convenient excuse for genocide.

You talk of Henry Morgenthau as an eye witness when he never left Istanbul. I've already said plenty on him.

The evidence for Armenian Genocide is not overwhelming. The evidence you deliberately ignore is though.

Oh come on! That was a huge post! I have work to do. I just read the part about the 800K Armenian refugees.
I've told you so in the past: Yes, I believe the figures are exaggerated but killing hundreds of thousands, including civilians to quell unrest is a form of genocide.
Death-marches is also a form of genocide.

Seriously? You ask where the Armenians are and I show you, your response is this? If you're gonna move the goal post at least have the decency to acknowledge your initial assumption to be false.

[Abdülmecid I]

Oh come on! That was a huge post! I have work to do. I just read the part about the 800K Armenian refugees.

If you really want a serious debate about a controversial issue, I think you should be prepared for long reading...

You are wrong. Turks left Crete with the Lausanne Treaty and there were about 10%-15% in here.

When Crete was given to Greece, the muslims were the one fourth of its total population, but when the Treaty of Lausanne was signed,they were the 1/20. I thought you were from Crete, alhoon.

In Morea? They've been kicked out unceremoniously during the 19th century..

That's proudly nationalistic way to say that they were slaughtered.

[alhoon]

If you really want a serious debate about a controversial issue, I think you should be prepared for long reading...

Touché...

When Crete was given to Greece, the muslims were the one fourth of its total population,

Nah, they were like 15-20% and with the Treaty of Lausanne they were about 10%. And the 7%-8% that left in those 10 years left on their own*, we didn't death-march them and there was no government effort to kill them.

*OK, I admit that they came to the decision to leave cause they weren't treated very nice. But it was more similar to Constantinople in 1950-1960 than Ottoman Armenia or Greek Pontus in 1915.

That's proudly nationalistic way to say that they were slaughtered.

They were not slaughtered!
They were... well, people didn't go to their shops, they were incidents of violence etc that contributed to their decision to leave.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Never realised you were a holocaust denier setekh.

[athanaric]

Nice try... Lausann treaty was at 1923 and by that time, no Turkish was left at Crete, Mora or Thesselia! I ask again; where did the Turkish of Mora, Crete and Thesselia gone?

What's more interesting, how did the Turks arrive in these places?

It's very easy to trace the Armenians. They went to USA, France and Syria. Where do you think millions of Armenians living in these countries came from? Or, do you think they came from space?

Maybe that's because they actually multiplied in exile? You as a Turk should be the first to understand the concept of a tribe settling a new area and vastly increasing in numbers. Although the difference is, the Armenians didn't murder or displace anyone in Western Europe or America, nor do they display any significant amount of racism towards the local natives.

Never realised you were a holocaust denier setekh.

That surprises you?

[Stavroforos]

They were not slaughtered!
They were... well, people didn't go to their shops, they were incidents of violence etc that contributed to their decision to leave.

I don't want to argue with you because the Turkish nationalists in this thread will make a big deal out of it, but the Turks of Greece during the Revolution were pretty much ethnic cleansed. The problem is who do you consider to be a Turk? A Turk in Greece could have been from "Turkey", but most of the time they would have simply been Greek Muslims, since Turk and Muslim have largely been synonymous here, so those who were massacred were certainly Muslims but unlikely Turks.

[removeduser_487563287433]

That surprises you?

Evil is rare. I should hope evil of this degree will always surprise me.

[Abdülmecid I]

Nah, they were like 15-20% and with the Treaty of Lausanne they were about 10%. And the 7%-8% that left in those 10 years left on their own*, we didn't death-march them and there was no government effort to kill them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Turks

26% in 1881 and 7% in 1920.

*OK, I admit that they came to the decision to leave cause they weren't treated very nice. But it was more similar to Constantinople in 1950-1960 than Ottoman Armenia or Greek Pontus in 1915.

Never claimed that they were disposed of violently. My point was about proving that the Muslims were being gradually expelled from Crete, long before the Lausanne Treaty.

They were... well, people didn't go to their shops, they were incidents of violence etc that contributed to their decision to leave.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_o...e_of_civilians

What's more interesting, how did the Turks arrive in these places?

Like most people, from Visigoths to Greeks, by migrating. Firstly, their contact with the locals was obviously violent, but they gradually assimilated.