A Song of Ice and Fire Mod

[Henry of Grosmont]

1. I think, we shouldn't include Karstark. Instead of that, we could include Dayne, to balance South.
2. Kings Landing is our Jerusalem. Victory conditions: hold X number of provinces AND Kings Landing.

[Marcus Brutus]

Werthead, we're using some of Amok's banners, we secured the right to use those awhile ago. However we may be interested in using the ones of yours to which Amoks' equivalent doesn't appeal.
Also, what's your opinion on using Karstark? As well as your faction assignment. Any changes you would make from Rufats'?

[Bigwig]

Hey, this is Bigwig from the RTW mod. Just throwing in my line of thought before anything is laid in concrete.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of simplicity concerning factions. If the mod is based on the War of the Five Kings, have 5 major factions with Dorne and Arryn on the side. Stark and Tully go under the banner of the King in the North, King's Landing joins the Westerlands under the Lannisters, Highgarden and the Stormlands are united under Renly, and Dragonstone and the Iron Islands make for the other two kingdoms. The AI will be divided along the right lines (a major bonus in my books) and the army composition would be accurate to the story as these allies would often combine forces. If the diplomacy and vassal system is robust enough you could add in the minor factions later once the mod is stabalized. My picks would be Bolton, Frey, Florent, the Night's Watch, and maybe Redwyne. Just KEEP IT SIMPLE above all, especially in the developing stages. The more factions you add willy-nilly, the more effort it takes to realize them, and in my experience having things too complicated from the start makes for a stillborn mod. And we don't want that. Plus I honestly think this method of dealing with factions makes the most sense.

I'm all for baby steps.

[Werthead]

Well, the images aren't 'mine', they were created by Ran and Linda who run the Westeros.org site explicitly on George's instructions. They are the 'most approved' out there (although George did admit to missing the fact that the dragon on their Targaryen shield had an incorrect number of limbs). But Amok's are pretty good as well, not too far behind. So that should take care of that problem.

The Karstarks are descended from the Starks and their military is very similar to the Starks, so I'd avoid using them. I'd say use the Umbers instead, as their character is much closer to that of the Scots.

[Marcus Brutus]

Karstarks were included due to their questionable loyalty. The only other vassals included are the traitors (Frey, Bolton, Florent) and Karstarks are the only other powerful vassal that comes to mind as far as loyalty goes. Can it be safely assumed they will remain with Stark, or should we put them in and let the game play its course?

[Henry of Grosmont]

Werthead, we're using some of Amok's banners, we secured the right to use those awhile ago. However we may be interested in using the ones of yours to which Amoks' equivalent doesn't appeal.

Can you send me those Amok's banners?

[The_Smiling_Knight]

I'm going to try and get started on the Lannister banners, shields, etc after I go track down Amok's sigils. I'll only do Lannister for now until it is determined if we are doing the "a few factions for the first release" idea (a good idea from Bigwig).

[Marcus Brutus]

Er, be careful with Lannister. We're not using all of Amok's sigils, and Lannister may be one of the ones coming from the citadel. Depends what Ran says over there.

[The_Smiling_Knight]

Ok, I'll try the Night's Watch to experiment once I figure out how to use the texture converter (actually, which textures have to be changed; i.e. the texture AND the trans texture or just the texture?) to give this a shot.

[The_Smiling_Knight]

Heh, seems I need to brush up on my Photoshop skills. Never did learn how to keep the lighting effects and appearance of ripples/folds whilst changing the colors and adding the symbols of the faction. Working on it.

[Werthead]

The Umbers' loyalty isn't much hotter than the Karstarks at the moment:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By the start of ADWD, the Umbers have sworn loyalty to the Boltons - due to the Greatjon being Roose's prisoner and hostage - whilst the Karstarks have gone over to Stannis. The Manderlys are publicly saying they are on-side with the Boltons as well.

In fact, as of the end of ASoS/start of ADWD, the only Northern houses who we know for sure are still loyal to the Stark cause are the Reeds, Glovers and Mormonts. In fairness, this is because most of the rest believe the Starks are now extinct.

[ThePaleHorseman]

All factions should be Northern European except Martell which as has already been discussed should be Southern European. The next two most logical moves would be The Night's Watch and The Wildlings.

Is there a limit to the number of slots available for factions of any one culture? If so, it might be wise to trim the number of starting factions back just a bit.

Are Normans and Saxons really included in m2:TW as cultures?

If so,

Stark = Saxon
Lannister = Norman
Tyrell = French
Tully = English
Martell = Spanish
Greyjoy = Danish

If the above cultures cannot be used more than once:
Bolton = Scottish(Saxon)
Arryn = German HRE(English)
Wildlings = Slave (Scottish)
Night's Watch = Papal States
Baratheon/Stannis = Sicilian(Norman)
Baratheon/Renly = Milanese(Norman)
Florent = Venetian(French)
Frey = Portugal(English)

Okay, files unpacked. Here are our factions:

Possible inclusions:
King's Landing
Karstark
Targaryen (historical battle purposes)


And here are our culture:
Northern European:
England, France, Holy Roman Empire, Scotland, Denmark, Normans, Saxons

Southern European:
Spain, Venice, Sicily, Milan, Portugal, Papal States, Slave

Eastern European:
Hungary, Poland, Russia

Greek:
Byzantine Empire

Middle East:
Mongols, Timurid, Moor, Egypt, Turks

Mesoamerican:
Aztec

So we have 24 factions premade and 17 factions to place in for the first release. Discuss.

[Marcus Brutus]

Okay. After much reflection and discussion with Ran and a few others, this mod has come to an impasse.

Firstly, the way we were originally going to go with this no long seems practical, nor the makings of a good campaign. It will be nigh on impossible to make the events of the game correspond in the books in most points without scripting the campaign and forcing the players hand up until the end of Feast, which to me doesn't sound very fun if all your moves are restricted and forced, à la Prologue, anyone?

So, the new direction of this mod. The setting will be after Robert/Eddard's death. Four of the five kings are in play, and either Balon has crowned himself, or he is close to it. There will be very few scripted events. Wildling Invasion is about the only one that comes to mind at the moment. The scene will be set, and the player will take control of one of the factions, and history is made or something epic like that.

How this affects us:
No changes in the map
More texting
More skinning
Better overall product

Now to implement this, we're going to have to make some changes in the faction list. Vassals will have to be added, BUT they will come at a later time. For now, we will only focus on the Major Houses, Night's Watch, and Wildlings.

Ran from Westeros.org has permitted us to use his clipart and sigils, and is going to email some of the artists for permission for those that require it. We also hope to gain some researchers in the very near future. Deciding cultures is a necessity to getting started. We are also in dire need of skinners. A friend of mine is looking into finding a few more, and anyone you know fo who can help would be excellent.

Now to get this off the ground, we're going to need some sort of meeting between our graphics team. I already have turnleft on IM. Rufats, do you have some sort of IM or can you download a messenger? Same for Smiling Knight.

Until such times, cultures are our main priority!

Current faction list:
Stark
Lannister
Tyrell
Tully
Arryn
Martell
Greyjoy
Baratheon/Renly
Baratheon/Stannis
Baratheon/Joffrey
Nights Watch
Wildlings

Upon the comletion of this, or if we get an influx of graphical talent, will we decide the vassals to be included.

Thoughts, comments, culture ideas?

[The_Smiling_Knight]

I don't think it's an impasse really. In fact, I think what this turn of events does is to force us to focus on the basics without getting cuaght up in a "let's do this... oh! And add that and those!" type of scenario from inception. That's a good thing as far as I can tell. If we do this right, this could be insanely cool.

Awesome news from Ran! I spent some time on the Westeros boards a while back, Ran always seemed pretty cool from what I could tell.

I have Yahoo Msngr on my box right now but I can grab any other if there is a preference.

I'll do as much research as I can into appropriate cultures.

As a complete novice as far as skinning is concerned, if you find better, awesome! Run with it, I'll find some way to help out, rest assured. I really GOTTA be a part of this! For now I'm also going to continue learning and see how quickly I can pick up skinning. Just looking for some sort of resource as to the actual skinning process as I have the apps figured out. If there is something else you need me to do, just say the word, I have nothing if not time on my hands.

[The_Smiling_Knight]

The Umbers' loyalty isn't much hotter than the Karstarks at the moment:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By the start of ADWD, the Umbers have sworn loyalty to the Boltons - due to the Greatjon being Roose's prisoner and hostage - whilst the Karstarks have gone over to Stannis. The Manderlys are publicly saying they are on-side with the Boltons as well.

In fact, as of the end of ASoS/start of ADWD, the only Northern houses who we know for sure are still loyal to the Stark cause are the Reeds, Glovers and Mormonts. In fairness, this is because most of the rest believe the Starks are now extinct.

well, one thing is for sure, I could NEVER see Howland Reed's brood abandoning the Starks or their cause.

[Marcus Brutus]

Okay. Can you PM me your Yahoo?

[The_Smiling_Knight]

Sent.

[Henry of Grosmont]

Ok. Guys, I don't have alot of time now, so I'll be quick.
1. Thanks to Werthead, Ran and all Westeros.org staff for your help and support.
2. Marcus, tomorrow I'll PM you my ICQ.
3. Also tomorrow, I'm taking Martell to start with.

[Bigwig]

If you're still taking faction input, here's a proposed list I had typed up earlier that goes with my consolidation theme. It's a little updated.

The King in the North
-Holds the North and the Riverlands
-Represents house Stark, house Tully
-Proposed vassals: Bolton, Frey

The King on the Iron Throne
-Holds the Westerlands and King's Landing
-Represents house Lannister, house Baratheon (Joffrey)

The King in Highgarden
-Holds the Reach and the Stormlands
-Represents house Tyrell, house Baratheon (Renly)
-Proposed vassals: Florent, Redwyne

The King in the Narrow Sea
-Holds Dragonstone and surrounding islands (Driftmark, Claw Isle, etc)
-Represents house Baratheon (Stannis)

The King of Salt and Rock
-Represents house Greyjoy

House Martell

House Arryn

The Night's Watch

The Free Folk



I feel that splitting the factions by individual houses is unneeded and would lead to some really weird gameplay, considering the diplomatic AI has the intelligence of a dumb rock. If Stark and Tully act as one faction in the books, why separate them? The AI certainly won't have them working together in any realistic way if they are separate. No combining forces, no fighting against a common enemy, just a hilarious free-for-all backstab fest that goes way counter to the books to an unnecessary degree. In order for the AI not to botch up the story completely and to preserve some novel accuracy, at least at the start, you would want to set up the factions along the actual lines of conflict and real leadership. This is at the king level for the most part. Anything less would be over complicating it, and I'm a big fan of Occam's razor. I'm sure the AI is too.

[ThePaleHorseman]

I strongly agree with the removal of mid-level houses such as Frey, Bolton, etc and making them into Generals with very low loyalty ratings. I will point out that there is at least one pretty well-regarded diplomacy mod that could be incorporated to allow for stronger alliances. Just something to consider.

Is anyone else concerned that the Wall and the areas of the map near to it will become static in gameplay unless The Night's Watch is going to move against the Northlands. While they are a large part of the story, I'm not sure they represent a plausible option in gameplay given they hold very little territory and border only two factions (one of whom they can't fight without deviating wildly from the story).

If you're still taking faction input, here's a proposed list I had typed up earlier that goes with my consolidation theme. It's a little updated.

The King in the North
-Holds the North and the Riverlands
-Represents house Stark, house Tully
-Proposed vassals: Bolton, Frey

The King on the Iron Throne
-Holds the Westerlands and King's Landing
-Represents house Lannister, house Baratheon (Joffrey)

The King in Highgarden
-Holds the Reach and the Stormlands
-Represents house Tyrell, house Baratheon (Renly)
-Proposed vassals: Florent, Redwyne

The King in the Narrow Sea
-Holds Dragonstone and surrounding islands (Driftmark, Claw Isle, etc)
-Represents house Baratheon (Stannis)

The King of Salt and Rock
-Represents house Greyjoy

House Martell

House Arryn

The Night's Watch

The Free Folk



I feel that splitting the factions by individual houses is unneeded and would lead to some really weird gameplay, considering the diplomatic AI has the intelligence of a dumb rock. If Stark and Tully act as one faction in the books, why separate them? The AI certainly won't have them working together in any realistic way if they are separate. No combining forces, no fighting against a common enemy, just a hilarious free-for-all backstab fest that goes way counter to the books to an unnecessary degree. In order for the AI not to botch up the story completely and to preserve some novel accuracy, at least at the start, you would want to set up the factions along the actual lines of conflict and real leadership. This is at the king level for the most part. Anything less would be over complicating it, and I'm a big fan of Occam's razor. I'm sure the AI is too.