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Thread: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by pratolano View Post
    Were the Saxons really responsible for changing the Eastern Frankish Empire to the HRE? That's very interesting. I will have to read into that!
    no Charlemagne divided up his realm between his 3 sons, the eastern part became the hre, the western part france. The history of the middle part is actually the most interesting though. That son died shortly and the people sort of took lives into their own hand, all through the middle empire you see rich strong cities popping up. It is still the most prosperous region in Europe

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    There's been a lot of talk recently in Britain about genetics due to the recent study that was done, which dispelled a lot of old myths. I read a university paper about the same time (I forget which university, though the paper was hosted on Medievalists) talking about the different ways in which Germanic migrant groups assimilated with the native culture of the areas they came to conquer. It mostly compared the Franks and Anglo-Saxons, though mentioned the Rus' as well. The most striking contrast was in just how quickly the Franks and Rus' conquered their new territories, and thus came to assimilate and meld with them in language and culture much quicker and easier, and how it took the Anglo-Saxons far longer to subdue their Celtic rivals and when they did, there was far less exchange of culture and language. As well as this, the paper also provided estimates based on what little evidence there is for the percentage these incoming groups would have made of the total population when included with the natives. The Franks were far fewer than their Gaulish subjects, the Rus' were an absolutely minuscule group compared to the Slavs, but the Anglo-Saxons - despite still only making up, at the most generous of the old estimates, 20% of the population of England on arrival - comprised a phenomenally higher percentage of their new land than the Franks or the Rus'. The recent genetic study can be interpreted in some strange ways, but according to the Guardian it shows England is, on average, (as it varies from one village to the next) 30% Germanic. This is quite astonishing, as for an incoming group to not only leave a noticeable imprint but to have increased it over time seems to be virtually unheard of for Germanic groups in the migration age.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    There's been a lot of talk recently in Britain about genetics due to the recent study that was done, which dispelled a lot of old myths. I read a university paper about the same time (I forget which university, though the paper was hosted on Medievalists) talking about the different ways in which Germanic migrant groups assimilated with the native culture of the areas they came to conquer. It mostly compared the Franks and Anglo-Saxons, though mentioned the Rus' as well. The most striking contrast was in just how quickly the Franks and Rus' conquered their new territories, and thus came to assimilate and meld with them in language and culture much quicker and easier, and how it took the Anglo-Saxons far longer to subdue their Celtic rivals and when they did, there was far less exchange of culture and language. As well as this, the paper also provided estimates based on what little evidence there is for the percentage these incoming groups would have made of the total population when included with the natives. The Franks were far fewer than their Gaulish subjects, the Rus' were an absolutely minuscule group compared to the Slavs, but the Anglo-Saxons - despite still only making up, at the most generous of the old estimates, 20% of the population of England on arrival - comprised a phenomenally higher percentage of their new land than the Franks or the Rus'. The recent genetic study can be interpreted in some strange ways, but according to the Guardian it shows England is, on average, (as it varies from one village to the next) 30% Germanic. This is quite astonishing, as for an incoming group to not only leave a noticeable imprint but to have increased it over time seems to be virtually unheard of for Germanic groups in the migration age.
    You have to consider however that at some point, many Saxons left Britain after the Norman Invasion and left for Eastern Europe, especially the ERE. One might argue that if they had stayed the percentage would have been bigger,... While in France, there weren't such re-migration, on such a big scale anyway. The Franks settled in France/Gaul and then stayed there. As for France having very little Germanic ancestry, check there:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelu...t.shtml#France (If you don't want to read the whole thing scroll down the page about half way, at some point you should see a map.)

    It seems about 40% or so of France is inhabited by people of Germanic descent, and when considering that these areas (Northern France and Eastern France) are the most densely populated ones, it seems indeed a majority of French people have Germanic ancestry. You have to remember that it wasn't only the Franks who settled in France, the Burgundians, the Alemanni.
    Last edited by ImperatorAndreas; April 19, 2015 at 07:37 AM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorAndreas View Post
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelu...t.shtml#France (If you don't want to read the whole thing scroll down the page about half
    Big shame they only test mt and Y dna

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Generaal Van Heutsz View Post
    Big shame they only test mt and Y dna
    Does that make it less credible somehow? I r not a sy-un-tist. I don't know much about how these things work, other than that apparently this new one in the UK used a more comprehensive and accurate technique.

    Imperator: Yes, the Norman conquest did indeed cause many to leave, but these were mostly from the upper-nobility and warrior classes; many of which, as we know, had taken British wives soon after they arrived, hence all the Anglo-Saxon kings with British names in their early, pagan period. So many of those who left had already integrated thoroughly with the native Britons but yes, England would certainly be more Germanic if not for this; is this what you're getting at? The statement stood redundant unless you're treating it as a competition, so I don't fully understand what you're saying.

    Anyway, the peasantry remained for the most part, as did the lower land-holding nobility who now worked as managers on the lands the Normans dispossessed them of, overseeing the peasants that had formerly "belonged" to them. And even the West Saxon royal family, despite leaving for Scotland after the conquest (Edgar Aetheling's relationship with his new Norman rivals is one of my favourite bits of that era) had married and bred their way back onto the throne of England within three generations, (if I've understood my genealogy right, Henry II was just as Saxon as he was Norman) which seems to be somewhat indicative of the pattern on the manors and farm holdings scattered around England.

    Do you know if that link you posted is as Van Heutsz says? It can be a real pain to find information on this stuff worth its bandwidth.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    Does that make it less credible somehow? I r not a sy-un-tist. I don't know much about how these things work, other than that apparently this new one in the UK used a more comprehensive and accurate technique.

    Imperator: Yes, the Norman conquest did indeed cause many to leave, but these were mostly from the upper-nobility and warrior classes; many of which, as we know, had taken British wives soon after they arrived, hence all the Anglo-Saxon kings with British names in their early, pagan period. So many of those who left had already integrated thoroughly with the native Britons but yes, England would certainly be more Germanic if not for this; is this what you're getting at? The statement stood redundant unless you're treating it as a competition, so I don't fully understand what you're saying.

    Anyway, the peasantry remained for the most part, as did the lower land-holding nobility who now worked as managers on the lands the Normans dispossessed them of, overseeing the peasants that had formerly "belonged" to them. And even the West Saxon royal family, despite leaving for Scotland after the conquest (Edgar Aetheling's relationship with his new Norman rivals is one of my favourite bits of that era) had married and bred their way back onto the throne of England within three generations, (if I've understood my genealogy right, Henry II was just as Saxon as he was Norman) which seems to be somewhat indicative of the pattern on the manors and farm holdings scattered around England.

    Do you know if that link you posted is as Van Heutsz says? It can be a real pain to find information on this stuff worth its bandwidth.
    Sorry I just realised I miss read your text at first making my first point about the re-emigration of Saxons unrelated, sorry about that, my bad XD.

    As for the link I posted, I am still trying to see a problem with it. From what I have read both Y chromosome and mitochondrial are some of the best ways to study the genetic diversity and origins of populations. Also, the Y one passes through the father and mt through the mother, allowing to get information from both maternal and paternal sides. I will admit however that I am not very knowledgeable about genetics myself so please, do tell me if it is flawed.
    Last edited by ImperatorAndreas; April 18, 2015 at 01:40 PM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorAndreas View Post
    Sorry I just realised I miss read your text at first making my first point about the re-emigration of Saxons unrelated, sorry about that, my bad XD.

    As for the link I posted, I am still trying to see a problem with it. From what I have read both Y chromosome and mitochondrial are some of the best ways to study the genetic diversity and origins of populations. Also, the Y one passes through the father and mt through the mother, allowing to get information from both maternal and paternal sides. I will admit however that I am not very knowledgeable about genetics myself so please, do tell me if it is flawed.
    No worries buddy, I'd wondered if you'd misread it but didn't know how to say that without coming across as a bit of a dick. No harm done.

    If the study in the link is as you say, then it should be fine, shouldn't it? I guess we'll have to wait for Van Heutsz to explain.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    Does that make it less credible somehow? I r not a sy-un-tist. I don't know much about how these things work, other than that apparently this new one in the UK used a more comprehensive and accurate technique.
    Oh I was just saying this because I was contemplating one of these tests but the interesting stuff begins with my maternal grandfather and paternal grandmother. They will not show anything in these tests then....

  9. #29

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    No worries buddy, I'd wondered if you'd misread it but didn't know how to say that without coming across as a bit of a dick. No harm done.

    If the study in the link is as you say, then it should be fine, shouldn't it? I guess we'll have to wait for Van Heutsz to explain.
    Lol don't worry, i wasn't offended at all

  10. #30

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by pratolano View Post
    Were the Saxons really responsible for changing the Eastern Frankish Empire to the HRE? That's very interesting. I will have to read into that!
    Yes it was them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generaal Van Heutsz View Post
    no Charlemagne divided up his realm between his 3 sons, the eastern part became the hre, the western part france. The history of the middle part is actually the most interesting though. That son died shortly and the people sort of took lives into their own hand, all through the middle empire you see rich strong cities popping up. It is still the most prosperous region in Europe
    It is true that Charlemangne devided his empire, but it still doesn't make the Franks responsible for the HRE. The Franks had the Eastern and Western Frankish empires (somewhile Lothringia as well) but it was a Saxon Duke who founded the HRE or better transfered the Eastern Frankish Empire in to a german realm under Saxon dominance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_dynasty

    Those saxon guys are responsible for the real split.
    Last edited by Marcus Aemilius Lepidus; April 19, 2015 at 12:49 PM.

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  11. #31

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aemilius Lepidus View Post
    Yes it was them.



    It is true that Charlemangne devided his empire, but it still doesn't make the Franks responsible for the HRE. The Franks had the Eastern Roman empire and it was a Saxon Duke who founded the HRE.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_dynasty

    Those saxon guys are responsible for the real split.
    The Franks had the Eastern Roman Empire?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorAndreas View Post
    The Franks had the Eastern Roman Empire?
    My mistake, tipping with out clear thinking, but i think you knew what i meant. However i corrected it in my original post.

    Proud to be a real Prussian.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    I asked just to make sure, no offense meant

  14. #34

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Since the OP actually asked "which is the most German and most British" (note the singular "is" here), the answer would be definitely be Saxons.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by pratolano View Post
    if I were to ask you who is the most "German" playable faction, or the most "British", for example (as regards the modern states or culture), what would your answer be?
    The answer would be that both Roman factions would be most German and British.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorAndreas View Post
    Genetically speaking, when considering that most French people today have Germanic ancestry, it is wrong to say that French people are mostly from Gallo Roman origins. In fact, very little amount of French people have Celtic ancestry today. Saying that French are descendents of Gallo Romans is like saying that Spanish people are descendents of Iberians, (which is also wrong).
    Genetically speaking, we are not tall and blonde for the most part. Our nobles were tall and blonde. Romans were dark hair and short aswell. Celts were short and brown hair (like your typical french).

    What X generation Frenches learnt in school, among the moto "the Galic, our ancestors" was:

    There was the Celts over a large part of western europe. The one living in France / Swiss / Belgium were renamed into Galic (Caesar named the to-be-France like that, Gauls, to underline dissensions and forbid the Celts from British Isles and those from France, Swiss & Belgium to unite. The plural name "Gauls" means he wanted to divide then conquer this sub-part of celtic lands that the previous romans firstly named "Gaul", in singular. As Celt don't write culture stuff, do not forget the Gaul history we know is written by Caesar. His text is proven wrong on details a lot of times), into Gallo-Roman and were christianized.

    -46, Alesia, Vercingetorix, etc. Stupid quarelling Celts fail to unite to V's call vs Caesar (because yeah that would mean V's is the chief, I guess, stupid pride). Then the Roman Empire conquer the Gaul, then all Celtics lands.

    Then 400 years later, Frank invasion. People tend to forgot what was the Frank motives for getting here. They were starving and push to their east from other people.

    Late roman empire had their ass kicked by their ex-mercenaries Franks. The non-elite / non-soldier / only-farmer gallo-roman people stayed and said "well, we are farmer, we can't count, read and make war. You can be our chiefs if the roman empire is gone BUT you absolutly need to be Christian or we would be very upset to have to pray multiple gods now" (forgetting their celts ascend. This is because those ing stupid celts DID NOT WRITE damn it. Everybody forgot them).

    A Frank king named Clovis said "let's think, mmm christianity = easy control = stability = me king of a HUGE farmer land = never starve anymore... ok then" and made nobility after his frankish family, ex-roman and ex-whoever-was-in-charge families (this is easier, of course).

    Like Gauls and Romans before, Franks eased their integration with Gallo-romans through mariages (this is well documented).

    We also have ostrogoth blood aswell, wisigoth, alaman, viking, english etc etc etc. You could have said Galate, that were Celts from to-be-France used for invasions as mercenaries in early Roman Empire (Galatasaray, the football club in Turkey, means "palace of the Galates"). This is not the last invasion and struggle this land will live.
    The name France just was retained because it was the last name it had before europe states emerged after Charlemagne.

    Late edit - I'm reading a recent genetic study says French, and huge part of Europe, don't have significantly new genetic material since... 4000 years.
    They say invasions were made with thousand of warriors, invading lands with millions of people, and these were diluted real quick.
    Last edited by L'Ost; March 28, 2017 at 11:20 AM.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Playable factions: which is the "most German" and "most British"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeratus View Post
    Modern french have both Gallic and Germanic ancestry, but the amount of Gallic ancestry should be significantly greater.
    Just been reading through this thread cause I found the question a bit odd/funny. I don't know why nobody has pointed this out yet but in the same way as the Germanic invasions of Britain and France were mostly cultural the Celtic occupation of France was the same.

    The Celtic "home-land" or point of origin is in the Austrian and Germanic Alps. As is the case with 'Celtic' DNA in Britain and Ireland or the Franks in France. The Gallic population is likely to have consisted mostly of the pre-Celtic occupants. The make-up of modern France is genetically Gallic in much the same way as it is genetically Frankish, which is to say not either of those. Defining the French as mostly Celtic-Gallic depends on you defining the occupants of Celtic Gaul as genetic Celts/Gauls rather than being ruled by such. SO you could similarly argue that the French are genetically Frankish since Franks were at one point defined as all those living in Frankia/Frankreich.

    It largely depends as who you define as genetically belonging to these groups. For example if the genetic Celts are those peoples who created the La Téne and Halstatt cultures (the root of Celtic civilisation), then the French aren't Celtic. If you define Gauls as ethnic Celts who occupy France for a significant part of Antiquity then this still holds true (see the ruling elite point made many times above). If you define Gauls as pre-Celtic ethnic groups who made up much of Celtic France then you would be correct in classifying a large part of the DNA of modern France as Gallic but wrong to define ethnic Gauls as belonging to a genetically Celtic group.



    On another note the most British factions (genetically similar to modern Britons) are probably the Romano-British and Picts or the Irish faction. For the Germans the Saxons are probably the most accurate since many remained behind and Saxony remained a significant force in the HRE for a long period afterwards.

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