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Thread: Map Changes

  1. #21

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grommel View Post
    Unfortunately, I can't help you that much for this part of the world. But I would be glad to help if someone need help for France's map.
    OK, how are these?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails france1.jpg   france2.jpg   france3.jpg   france4.jpg   france5.jpg  

    france6.jpg  

  2. #22

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Currently i can offer you maps about rainfall, temperature and real life screens:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Aksum:

    Qohaito in modern south Eritrea (The plains in the background are of course no desert, but just plains):





    Nah, i could call you 6 states alone in East Africa which lasted for around 1000 years.

    Well Makuria or Ethiopia at that time were no bigger then France or the Roman empire, same counts for Ghana. The first true super empires were Mali and Kanem.

    Isn't Koumbi Saleh the capital of Ghana? Whatever, i am interested in how these units will look like.


    Even if Makuria ever would have been a vasall (Which it wasnt) the map still stretches to the Alodian capital Soba. If i were a developer i would rather cut the map under Egypt and give the free regions to the Fatimids rather then making such an unhistorical decision.


    Well if you think that these hills do justice to over 2000 m high mountains, often referred as the roof of Africa...
    The mountains and hills of the DotS map were generated from satellite data so are all more or less proportional to their actual sizes. The mountains might look small to you but compared to other mountains in the game they are relatively high.

    I'll probably try to make that region we're talking about a little greener.
    Last edited by Space_Ed; May 06, 2015 at 06:35 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Currently i can offer you maps about rainfall, temperature and real life screens:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Aksum:

    Qohaito in modern south Eritrea (The plains in the background are of course no desert, but just plains):





    Nah, i could call you 6 states alone in East Africa which lasted for around 1000 years.

    Well Makuria or Ethiopia at that time were no bigger then France or the Roman empire, same counts for Ghana. The first true super empires were Mali and Kanem.

    Isn't Koumbi Saleh the capital of Ghana? Whatever, i am interested in how these units will look like.


    Even if Makuria ever would have been a vasall (Which it wasnt) the map still stretches to the Alodian capital Soba. If i were a developer i would rather cut the map under Egypt and give the free regions to the Fatimids rather then making such an unhistorical decision.


    Well if you think that these hills do justice to over 2000 m high mountains, often referred as the roof of Africa...
    Please could you draw me a map showing the regions of influence and control of the factions in our map in Africa in 1080? What would be even better is if you tell me which factions or groups controlled which settlements/forts along the river Nile all the way to Ethiopia. I can't make those changes myself but we have other team members who can.

  4. #24
    LinusLinothorax's Avatar Attested Africa-Nerd
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    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ed View Post
    What would be even better is if you tell me which factions or groups controlled which settlements/forts along the river Nile all the way to Ethiopia. I can't make those changes myself but we have other team members who can.
    I am afraid i dont made deep researches on high medieval Nubia/Ethiopia yet, so i am not the perfect man for that job. But atleast i can offer you this:

    Rough estimation of Makurias extension:

    The Nobatia refers to the most northern province of the kingdom, annexed by Makuria in the early Medieval age and now ruled by an eparch. Dotawo refers to the kingdom of Dotawo, which was thought to be a vasall-breakaway of Makuria after its fell, but recent theories say that Dotawo was just the Old Nubian name for Makuria.
    The Dongola (Also the capital of Makuria) probably refers to the Arab-Nubian kingdom of Dongola which was the sucessor of Makuria in that area. In the very end it says Sennar, referring to the Sultanate of Sennar which defeated the kingdom of Alodia (Here Aloa) in 1504.
    The red circled areas refer to the extension of the so called X-Culture, which existed in Attila-timeframe.

    Here is a more detailed map of Alodia i made recently:

    I based it on a map in Mohi Zarrougs book "The kingdom of Alwa". This map here also contains the most important cities of that area: Pakhoras (Today known as Faras) as the former capital of Nobatia and seat of the bishop of Nobatia, Dongola as the capital of Makuria, Soba as the capital of Alodia and Aksum as the capital of the former Aksumite empire. The problem is that we have very little information about Ethiopia after Aksum got destroyed by queen Gudit and if i will find a better candidate for a city in Ethiopia then Aksum i will rework the map.

    Something you cant see one the map are the so called five Bedscha kingdoms named Quata, Bazin, Baklin, Jarin and Nakis. They were located right south of the south-eastern edge of Alodia, in the area of modern north Eritrea. Sadly, i also dont know much about them either, only that they mixed with the indigenous Tigre population and probably adopted their Christian religion aswell. I plan to learn more about them in the future though.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    I am afraid i dont made deep researches on high medieval Nubia/Ethiopia yet, so i am not the perfect man for that job. But atleast i can offer you this:

    Rough estimation of Makurias extension:

    The Nobatia refers to the most northern province of the kingdom, annexed by Makuria in the early Medieval age and now ruled by an eparch. Dotawo refers to the kingdom of Dotawo, which was thought to be a vasall-breakaway of Makuria after its fell, but recent theories say that Dotawo was just the Old Nubian name for Makuria.
    The Dongola (Also the capital of Makuria) probably refers to the Arab-Nubian kingdom of Dongola which was the sucessor of Makuria in that area. In the very end it says Sennar, referring to the Sultanate of Sennar which defeated the kingdom of Alodia (Here Aloa) in 1504.
    The red circled areas refer to the extension of the so called X-Culture, which existed in Attila-timeframe.

    Here is a more detailed map of Alodia i made recently:

    I based it on a map in Mohi Zarrougs book "The kingdom of Alwa". This map here also contains the most important cities of that area: Pakhoras (Today known as Faras) as the former capital of Nobatia and seat of the bishop of Nobatia, Dongola as the capital of Makuria, Soba as the capital of Alodia and Aksum as the capital of the former Aksumite empire. The problem is that we have very little information about Ethiopia after Aksum got destroyed by queen Gudit and if i will find a better candidate for a city in Ethiopia then Aksum i will rework the map.

    Something you cant see one the map are the so called five Bedscha kingdoms named Quata, Bazin, Baklin, Jarin and Nakis. They were located right south of the south-eastern edge of Alodia, in the area of modern north Eritrea. Sadly, i also dont know much about them either, only that they mixed with the indigenous Tigre population and probably adopted their Christian religion aswell. I plan to learn more about them in the future though.
    Hi I need to know which settlements along the Nile are garrisoned by the Fatimids in 1080. Thanks

  6. #26
    LinusLinothorax's Avatar Attested Africa-Nerd
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    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ed View Post
    Hi I need to know which settlements along the Nile are garrisoned by the Fatimids in 1080. Thanks
    Sorry, i am no expert for the Fatimids. All i know is that their southern border was at Assuan, but i dont know if it was significant enough in 1080 AD to be represented as a province on the campaign map.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Sorry, i am no expert for the Fatimids. All i know is that their southern border was at Assuan, but i dont know if it was significant enough in 1080 AD to be represented as a province on the campaign map.
    Once I've verified that you're right I'll try to make the changes so that the Fatimids' garrisons are no further south than that in 1080. I think the potential problem is that the Fatimid AI might commit to invading Sudan etc instead of being interested in the 'Holy Land'.

  8. #28
    LinusLinothorax's Avatar Attested Africa-Nerd
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    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ed View Post
    I think the potential problem is that the Fatimid AI might commit to invading Sudan etc instead of being interested in the 'Holy Land'.
    Well, i guess there are three solutions for that problem:

    1. You can script the Fatimid AI.
    2. You cut everything below Egypt because the few rebell provinces that far south have no use anyway.
    3. Or you add Makuria as a faction.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Well, i guess there are three solutions for that problem:

    1. You can script the Fatimid AI.
    2. You cut everything below Egypt because the few rebell provinces that far south have no use anyway.
    3. Or you add Makuria as a faction.
    1. A possibility I think. Another problem is that Makuria and the Fatimids worked well together and were more like close allies than enemies as rebels would make them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Makuria "Egypt and Makuria developed close and peaceful relations when Egypt was ruled by the Fatimids. The Shi'ite Fatimids had few allies in the Muslim world, and they turned to the southern Christians as allies.[11] Fatimid power also depended upon the slaves provided by Makuria, who were used to man the Fatimid army. Trade between the two states flourished: Egypt sent wheat, wine, and linen south while Makuria exported ivory, cattle, ostrich feathers, and slaves. Relations with Egypt soured when the Ayyubids came to power in 1171. " Based on this it makes more sense to have Makuria as part of the Fatimid empire but represent the Makurians and script it so that those areas are prone to rebellions if you don't treat them well when playing as the Fatimids.

    2. You mean totally re-do the entire map just for this? No way. Do you have any idea how many hours of my life I've put into that map? I cannot understate how unreasonable that suggestion is.

    3. Impossible because there's a limit on the number of factions and the list was already decided a long time ago before I was on the team. It's easy to argue that Makuria isn't important enough to replace any of the current ones.
    Last edited by Space_Ed; May 07, 2015 at 04:04 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Of the options available when considering that wikipedia article it seems the best option is to have Makuria as part of the Fatimids. Especially as apparently Makurians fought in Fatimid armies. Making those areas prone to rebellions if not treated well with low taxes etc seems like the most accurate way of depicting the situation.

  11. #31
    LinusLinothorax's Avatar Attested Africa-Nerd
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    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ed View Post


    1. A possibility I think. Another problem is that Makuria and the Fatimids worked well together and were more like close allies than enemies as rebels would make them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Makuria "Egypt and Makuria developed close and peaceful relations when Egypt was ruled by the Fatimids. The Shi'ite Fatimids had few allies in the Muslim world, and they turned to the southern Christians as allies.[11] Fatimid power also depended upon the slaves provided by Makuria, who were used to man the Fatimid army. Trade between the two states flourished: Egypt sent wheat, wine, and linen south while Makuria exported ivory, cattle, ostrich feathers, and slaves. Relations with Egypt soured when the Ayyubids came to power in 1171. " Based on this it makes more sense to have Makuria as part of the Fatimid empire but represent the Makurians and script it so that those areas are prone to rebellions if you don't treat them well when playing as the Fatimids.
    Of the options available when considering that wikipedia article it seems the best option is to have Makuria as part of the Fatimids. Especially as apparently Makurians fought in Fatimid armies. Making those areas prone to rebellions if not treated well with low taxes etc seems like the most accurate way of depicting the situation.
    I know all of this, i have read more then just Wikipedia. But does it make a kingdom a vasall to an other just because it had good relations and traded with it? Why are the Kievan Rus no vasalls of the Roman empire then?
    These words here are the one and simple truth: Making Makuria a vasall of the Fatimids is unhistorical. Period. Just script the Fatimids to make them more agressive toward Syria. That would be the best and only way if you wont add Makuria because "it was not important enough".

  12. #32

    Default Re: Map Changes

    What did you do to the coasts? I smoothed them over 2 years ago........

  13. #33

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    I know all of this, i have read more then just Wikipedia. But does it make a kingdom a vasall to an other just because it had good relations and traded with it? Why are the Kievan Rus no vasalls of the Roman empire then?
    These words here are the one and simple truth: Making Makuria a vasall of the Fatimids is unhistorical. Period. Just script the Fatimids to make them more agressive toward Syria. That would be the best and only way if you wont add Makuria because "it was not important enough".
    They also supplied troops.

    Making this mod is about making compromises. There are limits to what can be achieved. If you wanted to make a Makuria faction which faction would you take out of the game? If we took out Lithuania there'd be a lot of very disappointed Lithuanian fans. Once we had a war with an Irish American because he was devastatingly offended that we hadn't made an Irish faction.

    It does appear that making Makuria part of the Fatimids is closer to the actual history than making them rebels because making them rebels makes the Fatimids at war with Makuria. Makuria at war with the Fatimids is much less historically accurate.

    These words here are the one and simple truth: Making Makuria at war with the Fatimids is unhistorical. Period.

    Anyway the choice of the factions was taken before I was part of the team and I took no part in deciding which people ended up in the game as factions. There are many many different possible factions across the whole map and it's impossible to make everyone happy.
    Last edited by Space_Ed; May 07, 2015 at 06:34 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by danny X View Post
    What did you do to the coasts? I smoothed them over 2 years ago........
    I haven't done anything to the coasts. I don't know how to edit them. Why? What are you talking about?

  15. #35

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by danny X View Post
    What did you do to the coasts? I smoothed them over 2 years ago........
    i hope so... they look like minecraft.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Map Changes






    That's a before shot at the top and an after shot at the bottom.

    Have you made any changes to map_heights since 17/03/2013 SpaceEd?

    I'll upload my files here in abit, I just woke up and feel like poo, desperately in need of some caffeine

  17. #37

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by danny X View Post





    That's a before shot at the top and an after shot at the bottom.

    Have you made any changes to map_heights since 17/03/2013 SpaceEd?

    I'll upload my files here in abit, I just woke up and feel like poo, desperately in need of some caffeine
    Ah, I have removed several lakes which appeared on our map which shouldn't be there in real life. So I have touched that file yes. That could be a problem I suppose. I mainly took lakes out of Iran. There were a load of lakes there which shouldn't be there in real life.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ed View Post
    Ah, I have removed several lakes which appeared on our map which shouldn't be there in real life. So I have touched that file yes. That could be a problem I suppose. I mainly took lakes out of Iran. There were a load of lakes there which shouldn't be there in real life.
    Ok, add your latest map_heights.tga here and I'll merge my file with your latest file, I should be able to remove my changes where you've removed lakes.

    Here's my files anyway if you want to check it over. (edit: Files removed as has now been updated)
    Last edited by danny X; May 09, 2015 at 10:08 AM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    I know all of this, i have read more then just Wikipedia. But does it make a kingdom a vasall to an other just because it had good relations and traded with it? Why are the Kievan Rus no vasalls of the Roman empire then?
    These words here are the one and simple truth: Making Makuria a vasall of the Fatimids is unhistorical. Period. Just script the Fatimids to make them more agressive toward Syria. That would be the best and only way if you wont add Makuria because "it was not important enough".
    You are right, but it's a problem of the game mechanics. Scripting to make them more aggressive to a certain faction.... not gonna happen. So we are left with
    a) Makuria= rebels they are always at war with "Egypt" and will get invaded immediately in 1080 (unhistorical)
    b) have them part of the Egypt faction in 1080, prone to rebellion, with very little player control there (compromise)
    We are going with option b)


  20. #40
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    Default Re: Map Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Ed View Post
    Check out these badboys!
    NOOOICE!

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