[PREVIEWS] WIP Preview Thread

**Ahiga** · May 10, 2015, 07:52 PM

Like Baozi said. The only units with mixed armor/noarmor that I can think of for the Romans are the Cohors Limitanei. Possibly also Equites Alae. I can't begrudge you for your opinion, of course, but I definitely take the opposing view. I really detest artifical uniformality and am not averse to mixed armor in a unit. In a perfect world I could make it so only the first three ranks have armor and the rest have a mix of armor and no armor, but unfortunately it's not possible. I do plan on doing similar things for middling tier Germanic units, at least perhaps before reforms for them. It'll help to distinguish a unit in the middle tiers that are better than levies yet not as good as higher grade or elite units.

All a matter of subjective preferences and interpretation of our limited information on antiquity, so nobody is right or wrong.

I'd recommend looking at tutorials on how to change Variant Mesh Definitions to see about fixing it for your own use/as a mini mod. It ought to be fairly easy as I have the names of say, a VMD for armor or clothing or whatever fairly explicit as to what it is.

**legio_XX** · May 12, 2015, 06:33 PM

I think the mixed armor looks great. I would say for the both spear and sword limes unit. They should at least all have helms. I feel it would help separate them from numoris more.

**okcida3** · May 13, 2015, 11:43 PM

Hi all !
sorry for my English
post the some interesting pictures:
1) Late roman Army IV-V centry A.D http://www.mediafire.com/view/x8ecij...dd52aa5947.jpg
2) Battle for Belizariy in Italy VI centry a.d http://www.mediafire.com/view/vu0j1r...0b1b245e69.jpg
3)Guards of Constantinopolis (maybu Sholoe Palatina) VI centry a.d http://www.mediafire.com/view/wgp8gl...dbe503e805.jpg
4)forgotten partially in battle http://www.mediafire.com/view/mmddp1...3cbfb01b4f.jpg
5)Late roman solders V-VI centry a.d http://www.mediafire.com/view/g2c892...f55c4d3894.jpg
5)Late roman archer (Eastern roman empire?) http://www.mediafire.com/view/nclco5...2cc3573553.jpg
On my own behalf: it seems to me that the shields in units (West Roman Empire) can be red. And emblem may be white-yellow. How in this image:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/w16kiz...f525bdacc1.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/ac67rc...9e7aa6b410.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/pu5152...d86b3cb3cc.jpg
And what about the crests - it can also experiment with colors - eg White-Blue. Would be looked just class!

**Ahiga** · May 29, 2015, 07:17 AM

In light of not much previews recently I figured I'd share a mockup/proof of concept test for the "Retainer" class of Germans. The retainers (Still working on a proper latin name, maybe Germanic but probably sticking with latin as the lingua francia for the Germans) represent your middle tier and what ideally should make up the bulk of your professional soldiers. They are a catch-all for well off freemen who might temporarily join on a raid or invasion, members of a lower grade chieftain or warlord's comitatus or maybe the lowest ranking members of an upper class comitatus (belonging to a prince, a nobleman or a king).

The text mentions what I'm going to do with the Germans to help visual diversity - only "Royal grade" (the elite of elite, equivalent to the Roman's named regiments like the Herculiani or Lanciarii Seniores) and "Comitatus grade" (equivalent to Legio Palatina or Auxilia Palatina) will have the clean and shiny mail worn by the 2nd from the left fellow. Even then the comitatus grade may wear a mix of shiny mail and dirty mail. The dirty mail has a rustier, more grungey and patina'd appearance, which is all the Retainer class will be able to get.

In addition to reflect their irregular bring-your-own-beer nature they'll be wearing a mix of dirty mail, leather jerkins, quilted jerkins, for the East Germans fur coats and possibly a few with just fancy tunics (1/5 or less). And the 2nd leather jerkin is actually with CA's tinted mask system so it can be one of 8 shades.

There's also going to be a divide in some of the clothing and beardstyles between the West Germans (Langobardi, Franks, Alamanni, others) and East Germans (Vandals, Goths, Burgundii, others). Only West Germans will have the Suebian knot, the West Germans will have greater percentages of mustaches (not 'nothing else but staches', just x2 as much), only ones to have striped clothing. East Germans will have more (x2 or so) 'trimmed beards', will either be the only Germans to have fur cloaks and fur vests/clothing or they will just have a much greater amount (maybe 50% or more within a unit). I swore I came across an account saying the Goths' national costume was some sort of fur or hide or leather attire. I can't find it again but I like that aesthetic - they'll still have regular woolen and linen clothing but much more leather and fur than the West Germans.

**Cope** · May 29, 2015, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ahiga

In light of not much previews recently I figured I'd share a mockup/proof of concept test for the "Retainer" class of Germans. The retainers (Still working on a proper latin name, maybe Germanic but probably sticking with latin as the lingua francia for the Germans) represent your middle tier and what ideally should make up the bulk of your professional soldiers. They are a catch-all for well off freemen who might temporarily join on a raid or invasion, members of a lower grade chieftain or warlord's comitatus or maybe the lowest ranking members of an upper class comitatus (belonging to a prince, a nobleman or a king).

The text mentions what I'm going to do with the Germans to help visual diversity - only "Royal grade" (the elite of elite, equivalent to the Roman's named regiments like the Herculiani or Lanciarii Seniores) and "Comitatus grade" (equivalent to Legio Palatina or Auxilia Palatina) will have the clean and shiny mail worn by the 2nd from the left fellow. Even then the comitatus grade may wear a mix of shiny mail and dirty mail. The dirty mail has a rustier, more grungey and patina'd appearance, which is all the Retainer class will be able to get.

In addition to reflect their irregular bring-your-own-beer nature they'll be wearing a mix of dirty mail, leather jerkins, quilted jerkins, for the East Germans fur coats and possibly a few with just fancy tunics (1/5 or less). And the 2nd leather jerkin is actually with CA's tinted mask system so it can be one of 8 shades.

There's also going to be a divide in some of the clothing and beardstyles between the West Germans (Langobardi, Franks, Alamanni, others) and East Germans (Vandals, Goths, Burgundii, others). Only West Germans will have the Suebian knot, the West Germans will have greater percentages of mustaches (not 'nothing else but staches', just x2 as much), only ones to have striped clothing. East Germans will have more (x2 or so) 'trimmed beards', will either be the only Germans to have fur cloaks and fur vests/clothing or they will just have a much greater amount (maybe 50% or more within a unit). I swore I came across an account saying the Goths' national costume was some sort of fur or hide or leather attire. I can't find it again but I like that aesthetic - they'll still have regular woolen and linen clothing but much more leather and fur than the West Germans.

Looks excellent.

Not sure if you already knew, but Bucellarii is the Latin phrase used for retainers in this period - though it does not, of course, literally mean retainer, so I don't know whether it would be appropriate for the Germans. Clientes might be better as a literal translation, though I'm sure the word "comitatus" was also used frequently by the Germanic peoples to refer to a military "companion". Might be wrong on that however, since "comitatus" (a word which seems to mean lots of things depending on the specific context) can also refer to "a contract of personal services between Lords and his men", which does imply a form of retainership.

This might be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comitat...sical_meaning)

**Ahiga** · May 29, 2015, 09:48 AM

Appreciate it. I'm saving Bucellarii to signify the top echelon retainers. A term I was considering was Ambactus/Ambacti - it originates from the Celts and was adopted by the Romans back during Caesar's time. That would discount its utility except that there is a clear case of Ambacti in the Gothic language as "andbahti" which means the term or concept of Ambactus was around when the Gothic language was being written. Though looking up the etymology it may have a separate cognate history (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/andbahti click on the boxes for missing characters, then you'll see it derives from Ambahtaz http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...manic/ambahtaz).

I'm not a stickler for absolute fidelity to the language given any language is able to bastardize itself, so unless someone has a better term I'll probably use Ambactus until I can go and figure out enough of Early/Proto Germanic grammar and nomenclature to use those words.

**Antiokhos Euergetes** · May 29, 2015, 10:17 AM

I would stick with comitatus it tends to be one favoured by scholarship to describe a warband or retinue

**Cope** · May 29, 2015, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Gaius Antiochus Philopappos

I would stick with comitatus it tends to be one favoured by scholarship to describe a warband or retinue

I'd tend to agree with this, only it might be a little confusing on account of the "comitatenses".

Also Ahiga, I don't know if you knew this, but for whatever reason, units are regularly showing up twice in the recruitment panel, and for some reason, one variant (even though its a carbon copy in terms of name and stats) costs more than the other. I seem to remember that there was a similar problem in D et I. Wonder if you were aware of this.

**Ahiga** · May 29, 2015, 11:18 AM

Problem is I need to reserve Comitatus for the guys above these in quality. The breakdown is 'roughly' with some deviation:

"Levy" -Unfree/subject populaces/too young or too old or not interested in going on raid. Crap equipment, crap quality. Think "Aelfgar, the old german from some tribe nobody's heard of conquered by the Visigoths given a spear and shield and told to stand there and hold back the Huns"

"Freemen" -Freemen of adult male age, able and willing to bear arms. No armor, no helmets but good as your stereotypical barbarian. Think "Finnr, the young unmarried Alamanni who left home to join the warband of Gerulf, a robber-baron type whose gathered a bunch of men to fight for some local king or maybe the Romans"

"Retainers" - aformentioned description. Think "Godehard, a seasoned 20-30 something Frank who maybe fought for a time as an numeri for the Romans, or simply a man like Finnr who climbed the ranks and now is in the comitatus of Hadufuns, a nobleman of the Langobardi."

"Comitatus" - Members of a proper major chieftain, nobleman, or the junior members of a king or princes' comitatus. Think "Osberht, a Suebi whose ended up as a comitatus to one of Alaric's friends."

"Royal Comitatus" - the closest confidants of kings and royal princes. Think "Raganhar, a Visigoth whose met and can share the table with King Alaric of the Visigoths or perhaps fights for one of Alaric's sons"

I'll have my bastardized Latin phrases for you guys to correct eventually, once I've gotten the units equipped and everything. I might try and crash course myself into old germanic grammar and terms considering I was able to with Old English and Old Norse for the Saxons/Norse.

Also Ahiga, I don't know if you knew this, but for whatever reason, units are regularly showing up twice in the recruitment panel, and for some reason, one variant (even though its a carbon copy in terms of name and stats) costs more than the other. I seem to remember that there was a similar problem in D et I. Wonder if you were aware of this.

I think part of the reason is the copy_ system. I'll have to look into it, as that's definitely not intentional.

**Cope** · May 29, 2015, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ahiga

I think part of the reason is the copy_ system. I'll have to look into it, as that's definitely not intentional.

Yes I assume that it has something to do with the fact that you want all unit tiers to be recruitable regardless of the tech.

**Antiokhos Euergetes** · May 29, 2015, 12:09 PM

Okay, I see where you are coming from with the different levels of war bands, so Latin as opposed to old Norse or Anglo-Saxon? I will have give some thought and get back

**Ahiga** · May 30, 2015, 01:29 AM

Yeah. I've come up with a poor man's take on Old English & Old Norse for the Northern Germancs. I think I've gotten it gramatically correct as I made sure to check grammar rules and try to when possible verify the term was actually used in an Anglo-Saxon or Norse document. That'll be for the Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Danes, Geats. For the continental Germans I was inclined to go with Latin for now because at that time I wasn't sure if I could get the terms in old germanic (now I think I could, but it's an issue of time), plus we have abundant cases of Latin being used by these Germans and I figured to use Latin as the lingua francia for most factions unless/until they get a native treatment (The Arabs, the Persians, and the Nordics having that right now)

**char** · May 31, 2015, 05:28 AM

Just a quick preview of the unit cards for the FOTE mod.

These cards are for the WRE finished roster.
Please note a conscious design feature is to show all infantry units using swords with a red crest and all infantry units using spears with a yellow crest. This is to aid quick identification in battle as the units allow. Ie, some units do not have crested helmets.

Unit selection screen