The Arthashastra and Sun Bin's Art of War

[apostrophefz]

Would just like to share something I learned of:

A political guide book, similar to Machiavel's The Prince, but a millenium older http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthashastra. I really like the schedule he proposes to the king's daily routine.
And Sun Bin (allegedly a descendent of Sun Tzu)'s art of war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Bin%27s_Art_of_War

[Cyclops]

By coincidence I just picked up my copy of "The Wonder that was India" by Basham, and the written heritage of the subcontinent is very great. I have to say I had forgotten about the daily schedule, its allows for only a tiny amount of sleep: maybe it was a treatise affected by theory as much as pragmatism?

I have to say, "The prince" reads like a job application, a fella trying to sound clever and offering surprising interpretations to impress a potential employer. I think some of the suggestions are a bit specific, I think he has actual events the intended reader would recognise, and maybe shouldn't be taken as general principles.

I haven't read the Sun Bin book (well I have only read tiny bits of the Arthashastra in English, likewise English translations of the Prince and Sun Tzu), but I recall from the introduction of the most recent Sun Tzu Art of War (based on the very old finds from that Han tomb) mentioning a bunch of alleged heirs writing books including non-pragmatic rubbish like meteorological observations and a superstitious approach to warfare, is Sun Bin one of those?

I have to say my impression of Sun Tzu's book is it is the most important of the all these and still impresses the modern mind with its relevance. His caustic remarks about superstition mark (IIRC) the first harshly realistic approach to viewing the world without demons and spirits inhabiting and influencing every action, and his principles of intelligence, decisive movement and the economic cost of war are as valid as ever.

[Jay the Byzantine]

I have to study the Ardhashastra in my politics paper!

[hellheaven1987]

I haven't read the Sun Bin book (well I have only read tiny bits of the Arthashastra in English, likewise English translations of the Prince and Sun Tzu), but I recall from the introduction of the most recent Sun Tzu Art of War (based on the very old finds from that Han tomb) mentioning a bunch of alleged heirs writing books including non-pragmatic rubbish like meteorological observations and a superstitious approach to warfare, is Sun Bin one of those?

Na, I don't know which one you were reading but military treaties during Warring States were mostly practical issues; anyway in the old time it was normally assumed Sun Bin and Sun Tzu might be same person, although around 70s (I think) archaeological evidences suggesting they were not.

[Cyclops]

Na, I don't know which one you were reading but military treaties during Warring States were mostly practical issues; anyway in the old time it was normally assumed Sun Bin and Sun Tzu might be same person, although around 70s (I think) archaeological evidences suggesting they were not.

As I say I have read no Chinese classics in the original. The foreword of my English translation of Sun Tzu's art of War mentions he is the first military theorist to discard superstition, pointedly stating auguries and superstition do not determine the outcome of battles, and generals should focus on what is real.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

In my copy of the Art of War it is basically Sun Tzu's the Art of War but with a bunch of other Chinese military books. It's called Seven Military Classics of Ancient China and aside from Sun Tzu's work it also contains Tai Kung's Six Secret Teachings, The Methods of the Ssu-ma, Wu-Tzu, Wei Liao-Tzu, Three Strategies of Huang Shih-kung and Questions and Replies Between Tang Tai-tsung and Li Wei-kung so it's worth a look if anyone wants to read all of these texts. As for Sun Tzu himself I can't find many historic references at all, reading about the supposed war in which his leadership of Wu defeated Chu I instead find references to Fugai and Wu Zixu but not to Sun Tzu.

I heard that the Arthashastra was written by Chanakya, the teacher of Chandragupta Maurya. The text sounds rather Machiavellian for someone who was a philosopher and possibly a holy man (at least I have heard of him being described as a Brahmin but that not might be accurate).

[hellheaven1987]

Six Secret Teachings is one ing awesome source to look into Chinese warfare during Warring States.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I wouldn't know since I only got through most of Sun Tzu's Art of War .
The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China is a pretty good book in that respect although it is clearly lacking in other sources like Han Dynasty texts (do we still have Cao Cao's annotations on Sun Tzu and Zhuge Liang's military notes?) and the other writings from the Tang, Song and Ming (also many other texts from the period between Han and Tang). I don't know that the writings if Qi Jiguang are available in English.

[Cyclops]

.. I don't know that the writings if Qi Jiguang are available in English.

I just had another Lucasfilm facepalm moment. Qi Jiguang + vitamiser=Qui-Gon Jinn?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I just had another Lucasfilm facepalm moment. Qi Jiguang + vitamiser=Qui-Gon Jinn?

Hah! Qi Jiguang is Quigon Jinn and Wu Sangui is Anakin Skywalker.

Wait was Qi Jiguang writing about military strategy/tactics or was it martial arts?

[hellheaven1987]

The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China is a pretty good book in that respect although it is clearly lacking in other sources like Han Dynasty texts (do we still have Cao Cao's annotations on Sun Tzu and Zhuge Liang's military notes?) and the other writings from the Tang, Song and Ming (also many other texts from the period between Han and Tang). I don't know that the writings if Qi Jiguang are available in English.

Not surprise most Chinese military treaties were produced during Warring States, since it was the golden age of Chinese military - afterall, it was a period when the average casualty was around one hundred thousands per year, hence it is quite difficult not getting good at war. After this, the Chinese military spirit/attitude/culture simply went all the way downhill until it reaches a crappy state during Song, and never recover again.

[Copperknickers II]

I need to get round to reading Arthashastra at some point. It should be far better known than it is, it's lightyears ahead of its time. It's actually much more applicable than Machiavelli, let alone Sun Tzu.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I've read the Art of War and its (roughly) western equivalent (the Strategikon) but have not read the Arthashastra. Anyone have a link to an online version?

[Cyclops]

Magister Aetius I found this: http://www.allaboutbharat.org/post/a...a-pdf-kautilya and there's plenty more from just a quick Google.

I need to get round to reading Arthashastra at some point. It should be far better known than it is, it's lightyears ahead of its time. It's actually much more applicable than Machiavelli, let alone Sun Tzu.

I agree about Machiavelli, he's a bit and makes some rhetorical points that make me less confident in his arguments.

I am often surprised at how "advanced" some ancient writers seem, and its silly of me. Of course our ancestors reflected on human nature, and although our tech and society are much more complex there are still many basic facets of ourselves they could see as clearly as we do.

I recall marvelling at the sophistication of some 1920's New Yorker Cartoons, really cruel and clever ones they were (stupid of me, of course they were clever and cruel), the depth of feeling and understanding in some passages in the Bible (naturally, they were humans like us, some idiots, some smart, some good, some bad, most a bit of everything). There's very keen observation in Iliad, among all the chest thumping and woman abducting. I marvel at Herodotus' open mind, despite his own credulous ideas he happily mentions alternate versions of events and reports that he doesn't himself believe (in the case of the circumnavigation of Africa, details that strongly suggest the story is true).

I have only glanced at the Arthshastra, from memory its in many university libraries (if you can get into one).

[AqD]

Arthashastra seems more like a manual for a steward, sleeping 4.5 hrs a day and no hunting or drinking!

It must be terribly boring to be a Mauryan king...

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

How do we know this text isn't anachronistic? I have a hard time believing that this book is 2300 years old when at most our only sources on these time periods is a rock inscription in the middle of nowhere. Now how did the book survive?

[Tankbustaz]

How do we know this text isn't anachronistic? I have a hard time believing that this book is 2300 years old when at most our only sources on these time periods is a rock inscription in the middle of nowhere. Now how did the book survive?

Kept being used again and again, especially by the Gupta Successor states. Personally I know only of the Senas of Bengal using them, and that is from ye olde family histories.
Also, some of the descriptions used to refer to kings and princes are from pre Sunga times, especially the words used to describe princes and princelings. For example the Word Raja Putra is used to describe the princes in the Gupta Era, but the word used to describe prince is Up Raja in the book, or at least the one I had managed to read.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

That's really interesting, shame more Indian texts didn't survive (or did they just record the history poorly?).

[Tankbustaz]

That's really interesting, shame more Indian texts didn't survive (or did they just record the history poorly?).

Considering the fact that they did have a pretty substantial empire, they would have kept records about mundane day to day stuff. Also there are a couple of inscriptions about Jnan-Bhandar (libraries) being built by local nobility but having a ton of your libraries burnt throughout the middle ages doesn't help all that much. The majority of surviving records seem to be based around the middle ages
I personally am more interested in the excavations of Pataliputra that go on as we might be able to learn a lot more from there on out, especially how the city was designed compared to the Older IVC cultures.

[Copperknickers II]

How do we know this text isn't anachronistic? I have a hard time believing that this book is 2300 years old when at most our only sources on these time periods is a rock inscription in the middle of nowhere. Now how did the book survive?

What makes you say that? We have hundreds if not thousands of written sources from that time period, that's exactly around the time that ancient Greece was flourishing with its literature and philosophy, as well as Persian and Indian religious texts of Hinduism and Buddhism etc. In fact this is around the time the Old Testament bible was put together too.