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Thread: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    I knew that provocative headline would grab your attention. Now that I have your attention, it's time to inundate you with the boring news of the banking world.




    Insight - How Europe and U.S. stumbled into spat over China-led bank


    Historians may record March 2015 as the moment when China's chequebook diplomacy came of age, giving the world's number two economy a greater role in shaping global economic governance at the expense of the United States and the international financial institutions it has dominated since World War Two.

    This month European governments chose, in an ill-coordinated scramble for advantage, to join a nascent, Chinese-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) in defiance of Washington's misgivings.

    British finance minister George Osborne, gleeful at having seized first-mover advantage, stressed the opportunities for British business in a pre-election budget speech to parliament last week.

    "We have decided to become the first major western nation to be a prospective founding member of the new Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, because we think you should be present at the creation of these new international institutions," he said after rebuffing a telephone plea from U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew to hold off.

    The move by Washington's close ally set off an avalanche. Irked that London had stolen a march, Germany, France and Italy announced that they too would participate. Luxembourg and Switzerland quickly followed suit.

    The trail of transatlantic and intra-European diplomatic exchanges points to fumbling, mixed signals and tactical differences rather than to any grand plan by Europe to tilt to Asia.

    That is nevertheless the way it is seen by some in Washington and Beijing.

    As recounted to Reuters by officials in Europe, the United States and China who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject, the episode reveals the paucity of strategic dialogue among what used to be called "the West".

    It also highlights how the main European Union powers sideline their common foreign and security policy when national commercial interests are at stake.

    China's official Xinhua news agency reflected Beijing's delight.

    "The joining of Germany, France, Italy as well as Britain, the AIIB's maiden G7 member and a seasoned ally, has opened a decisive crack in the anti-AIIB front forged by America," it said in a commentary.

    "Sour grapes over the AIIB makes America look isolated and hypocritical," it said.

    Of the main U.S. allies in Asia, Australia appears close to joining, though no formal decision has been made, and Japan and South Korea are considering the possibility.

    "The Americans are starting to look very mean-spirited with their criticism," said a Beijing-based Asian diplomat. "This is not a battle they are winning. Even their closest allies in Asia are starting to fall in line."

    In Europe as in Washington, China's launch of a new institution to channel a fraction of its massive currency reserves into infrastructure investments in Asia posed a political conundrum and provoked turf disputes.

    Western countries had long urged Beijing to recycle some of its trade surplus into building transport, energy and telecommunications networks in developing nations, but they wanted it to use the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank, dominated by the United States and Japan.

    China, angered that the U.S. Congress has not ratified a 2010 agreement to increase its voting share and that of other emerging economies in the International Monetary Fund, chose to go its own way instead.

    With initial capital of $50 billion, the Beijing-based AIIB can offer at most a complement to the larger World Bank and ADB, but it is starting point for expanding Chinese influence.

    Officially, the United States says it is concerned about whether the bank will uphold human rights, environment and labour standards and be open and transparent in its governance.

    In private, senior U.S. officials acknowledge this is about power. One Obama administration member said Congressional foot-dragging on IMF reform had "created an opportunity for China to assert itself".

    Lew gave a blunt assessment last week, telling U.S. lawmakers: "It's not an accident that emerging economies are looking at other places because they are frustrated that, frankly, the United States has stalled a very mild and reasonable set of reforms in the IMF."

    Republican Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama acknowledged irritation about IMF voting rights may have been a factor.

    "I think this could be an unfortunate event and it might be bigger than we understand today," he told the Brussels Forum, an annual transatlantic dialogue organised by the German Marshall Fund of the United States.

    In Washington, the issue resided between the State Department, the Treasury and the White House National Security Council, which may have muddied U.S. communication with European allies, officials say.

    "There just wasn't a clear and coherent and unified message on this from the beginning. It kind of languished for a while in a state of indecision and that produced the outcome that you've seen," said a Congressional source familiar with the discussions.

    Within European governments there were debates about tactics and timing but the prevailing view was that it was better to try to influence the Chinese project from inside, several officials said.

    "The debate mostly pitted national security advisers, who leaned towards hugging the Americans close ... against economic and Asia advisers, who argued that this big train was leaving the station and it was in our interest to jump aboard," a European diplomat involved in some of the discussions said.

    In Berlin, the ministries of foreign affairs, finance and overseas development - run by rival wings of Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition - jostled for influence.

    Merkel's office instructed the finance and foreign ministries to take charge. Given Germany's prioritising of Chinese trade, there was never much doubt Berlin would join the AIIB.

    "It was a no brainer," a German aide said.
    You can read the rest of the article at Reuters.

    So basically China's new bank is seen by the US as an unwelcome rival to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. Maybe if my country didn't drag its feet with IMF reforms, as the article highlights, then the UK wouldn't have jumped the gun and joined so quickly, spurring other countries to do the same. The list of countries trying to join is only increasing after these founding members have been established. It appears the gravity of the world's economy is shifting every so slightly in China's favor. It ranks second in terms of GDP, but still far behind the US (the latter having a GDP of roughly $17 trillion, the former about $10 trillion). What will this mean as the 21st century rolls ahead? Isn't it a good thing that China is integrating itself into global affairs and being more open, despite whatever costs this might have for US hegemonic power? Does it really matter that China is becoming more important as a dominant economic player on the global stage so long as it's not a member of NATO?

    For that matter, will NATO matter or even be relevant 50 years from now, so long as Russia calms the down about Ukraine?

  2. #2

    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Isn't capitalism all about, anyone, no matter of backround and history, being able to rise and claim it's share of and why not a leading place in the global market?

    Monopoly of power is never a good thing, I for one support our new Chinese overlords.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Arcturus Mengsk View Post
    Monopoly of power is never a good thing, I for one support our new Chinese overlords.
    That was the same sort of sentiment the Atomic Spies of the late 1940s and early 1950s had when the US was the sole possessor of the atomic bomb. Then the USSR got the bomb, and the Cold War ensued (instead of a hot war, with, you know, actual open engagements between the US and USSR instead of proxy fights).

    That being said, I also welcome our new Chinese overlords. To them I say ni hao ma? 你好吗? Or, how are you? After a little bow of course, because it's only polite to acknowledge your overlords as such.

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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    9194
    Whitehall likes to punch above it's weight.

    Also, the British may have been sent to infiltrate another organization that the States can't join.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    You're not seriously suggesting that the UK is a poison pill, or that it's trying to influence this new bank from the inside, are you?

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    You're not seriously suggesting that the UK is a poison pill, or that it's trying to influence this new bank from the inside, are you?
    Implying UK is not the fifth column send into EU by US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Arcturus Mengsk View Post
    Isn't capitalism all about, anyone, no matter of backround and history, being able to rise and claim it's share of and why not a leading place in the global market?

    Monopoly of power is never a good thing, I for one support our new Chinese overlords.
    nobody likes losing power.

    Was much the same with Britain at their height - the Empire championed free trade because they were top dog. Then there was the economic crash of the 1870s(? i cant remember exactly), the rise of Germany etc etc and people started shutting up shop. Fortunately at that time Britain had 1/4 of the world still with which to force its trade upon. Ultimately this was only broken for good after ww2 cemented Britain's indebtedness to the United States, who proceeded to force their way into every market europe had once dominated.

    Capitalism is dog eat dog. There's no friends in money.

    So what i'm saying is perhaps the americans shouldnt be throwing stones in glass houses.
    Last edited by Carach; March 23, 2015 at 12:57 PM.

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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    dog bless and where are the socialism?

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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Moved from the Mudpit to the Academy because of the OP's premises.


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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    'It kind of languished for a while in a state of indecision'. Yup, that pretty much sounds like the present congress. Refusing to do your job has serious consequences.
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    The luxurious peace that Europe's had over the last half century seems to have really dulled the edge of its leaders
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    @ OP

    Color me not worried have fun playing with China. I will worry about China when it deals with its massive poverty, pollution corruption and hidden state debt buried in state owned companies and toss in regional discontent for that matter.

    "China, angered that the U.S. Congress has not ratified a 2010 agreement to increase its voting share and that of other emerging economies in the International Monetary Fund, chose to go its own way instead."

    Fair enough when China starts paying its share into the UN or related organizations based on GDP (comparable to the US) or say you know helping with Ebola as the supposed second largest economy in the world should I will worry about its influence.

    Let Europe walk I really could care less, good reason to leave. I for one am tired of spending on NATO maybe China will - my guess is no - unless they get something expensive. Next time France and Italy and the UK want to intervene in Libya or Mali or name some place else I would suggest the US president recommend they ask China for logistical help. Our country has s--t for infrastructure, and schools and health care so we can spend dollars to save their access to oil and be protected from Putin and have a farce of military spending and live in socialist paradise? Looks time to leave and spend our tax dollars at home sorry to Poland and the UK and the few others that deal fair but hey maybe its over have fun with China.
    Last edited by conon394; March 26, 2015 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    'Twas to be expected: and it will get worse over time. The odds are ever in China's favour. Although China's success will not lie in its ability to win over the powers of the Old World, but in it's influence in funding and building the Developing World.
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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Let Europe walk I really could care less, good reason to leave. I for one am tired of spending on NATO maybe China will - my guess is no - unless they get something expensive. Next time France and Italy and the UK want to intervene in Libya or Mali or name some place else I would suggest the US president recommend they ask China for logistical help. Our country has s--t for infrastructure, and schools and health care so we can spend dollars to save their access to oil and be protected from Putin and have a farce of military spending and live in socialist paradise? Looks time to leave and spend our tax dollars at home sorry to Poland and the UK and the few others that deal fair but hey maybe its over have fun with China.
    So China attracts some European powers to become founding members of its bank that rivals the World Bank, and you think that's grounds for dismantling NATO (or at least withdrawing US membership in favor of isolationism)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    'Twas to be expected: and it will get worse over time. The odds are ever in China's favour. Although China's success will not lie in its ability to win over the powers of the Old World, but in it's influence in funding and building the Developing World.
    That statement is as true today as it was when Mao Zedong was trying to win over Southeast Asia and Africa with the communist model for the Third World. It's funny how times change; now China has no interest in exporting ideology, only exporting its goods cheaply while acquiring Africa's resources and raw materials for an even cheaper price (in the long run, whereas in the short run they've dropped quite a bit of cash into infrastructure and heavy industry in African countries).

  15. #15

    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    14315
    They probably want to bypass their economic rivals in South and South East Asia in establishing Africa as the next cheap manufacturing hub.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    So China attracts some European powers to become founding members of its bank that rivals the World Bank, and you think that's grounds for dismantling NATO (or at least withdrawing US membership in favor of isolationism)?
    No not really I was being sarcastic. I would like Europe to man up to the - at minimum the 2% NATO informal rule and I would not mind rattling their cage a bit. For example I believe Poland just more or less hit that target while Germany is APCs with fake machine guns to NATO games. I would at least see how many bases Poland might to support as a shot over the German bow. I do not like to feel its our duty to fund the operational capacity of NATO and always have to supply support or satellites etc, or fund the capability of the CDC, etc or deal Ebola (*)

    *
    http://www.cgdev.org/blog/how-much-a...ng-spent-ebola

    Scroll down a bit for the graph nice Germany...
    Last edited by conon394; March 27, 2015 at 11:17 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    15426
    German strategy is to create buffer states, who they can sell their armaments to.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  18. #18

    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    =conon394;14440653 I will worry about China when it deals with its massive poverty, pollution corruption and hidden state debt buried in state owned companies and toss in regional discontent for that matter.
    That's like the world saying "i'll worry about the US once it deals with it's racial divide, subversive captitalist lobbies, social and moral decay, and general world-wide anti-Americanism."...didn't really work out for saddam, and pointing fingers at china's problems cannot disguise what is in reality a pretty significant geopolitical shift, albeit in it's infancy at the moment.
    Last edited by anant; March 27, 2015 at 03:06 PM.

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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @ OP

    Color me not worried have fun playing with China. I will worry about China when it deals with its massive poverty, pollution corruption and hidden state debt buried in state owned companies and toss in regional discontent for that matter.

    "China, angered that the U.S. Congress has not ratified a 2010 agreement to increase its voting share and that of other emerging economies in the International Monetary Fund, chose to go its own way instead."

    Fair enough when China starts paying its share into the UN or related organizations based on GDP (comparable to the US) or say you know helping with Ebola as the supposed second largest economy in the world should I will worry about its influence.

    Let Europe walk I really could care less, good reason to leave. I for one am tired of spending on NATO maybe China will - my guess is no - unless they get something expensive. Next time France and Italy and the UK want to intervene in Libya or Mali or name some place else I would suggest the US president recommend they ask China for logistical help. Our country has s--t for infrastructure, and schools and health care so we can spend dollars to save their access to oil and be protected from Putin and have a farce of military spending and live in socialist paradise? Looks time to leave and spend our tax dollars at home sorry to Poland and the UK and the few others that deal fair but hey maybe its over have fun with China.
    Is it our fault the US is obsessed with military power? Nothing stopping you from getting your act together and enacting socialism and fixing your infrastructure, other than Republicans who'd rather spend billions on aircraft carriers and nukes.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

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    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: UK betrays USA and sides with People's Republic of China!

    Got to agree with Copperknickers there. How the USA spends its money is its choice. The USA is the biggest economy in the world by quite a margin. There is absolutely nothing stopping the USA investing in infrastructure, schools and healthcare other then its own lack of political will to do so. The USA's insane military budget is its own political choice to try and maintain its influence. No more no less.
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