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Thread: Technologic gap

  1. #1

    Default Technologic gap

    I woud like to open a discussion subject regarding technological gap between cultures.
    Please participate as much you can

    Here is two sources I found regarding guns vs the old ways.

    https://thetimestream.wordpress.com/...le-of-tondibi/
    Morrocco
    2,500 Infantry equipped with Arquebus
    500 Infantry equipped with bows, lances and swords
    1,500 Light Cavalry

    6 English cannons

    Songhai9,700 infantry
    12,500 cavalry

    1,000 cattle

    Victory of Morrocco
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ba%C3%A7ente
    400 Portuguese musketeers
    against
    1500 archers and "buckler men"

    Victory of the Portuguese almost without casualities and while attacking a hill.

  2. #2
    Treaper's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    If we can make gunpowder units somehow weaker than was reality, it can be balanced... But yes, this can be real problem, you can according this take 2000 musketeers and conquer whole America so...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Weaker, nah.
    The problem on FTW3 as you seen in your test is that if you take eagle warriors stacks you steam roll Spaniards. To avoid that units have to be at least the same cost as modern european units, at least for elite units like eagle warriors.

    In this mod I will try to make things challenging for natives. They will fight for survival . Also the small pox death will fall upon them.
    Getting ride of Europeans should be something challenging and that the player should be proud of.

    To slow down the player playing as European I only see one solution that wont hurt unit stats, a script that gives money and units to natives.
    Last edited by falcom4ever; March 16, 2015 at 10:31 AM.

  4. #4
    AntonisTheGreek's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    I don't know if you have noticed,but the main advantages of the natives are the numbers and the ability to maintain large armies for few money.Either reduce the men per native unit or increase their upkeep.

  5. #5
    Treaper's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    It will be hard to balance it... It is true that Americans have default advantage in numbers, it's in their decription.. Maybe some script like 'the last standing' would help AI America to defend themselves, something like - if Inca have one settlement, then they will get two full stacks, like 'total alert' or like that something...In reality, weren't there some these things? Rulers always ordered all men to defend the country. And that could solve two problems... If I am European conqueror, it will be not so easy to defeat 'em all. And like AI they will gain chance to defeat the enemies.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    The subsaharian/native gap is pretty obvious and we will have to find a way.

    Now less clear is the gap between Asia and Western.

    The only example I could find that may show the technological hap is the Japanese case.
    Chinese guns were already known but completly ignored by Japanese.
    Only with the introduction of western Arquebuse the change in warfare occuerd in Japan. It was so powerfull that Oda took the best over the most powerful cavalry of that time in Japan (Takeda) by including guns.

    Then these Japanese matchlocks inspired of Portuguese design were decisive in Japanese invation of Korea :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...398%29#Weapons

    In Europe it was the combination of pikes and guns that made it a good weapon.
    Japan on the other hand used it in combination with bows. Matchlocks could take care of cavalry changes while the bows were used for their precision.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    I tried to balance aztec units tonight.

    I played two battles.

    First one I took only aztecs best units and slightly outnumbered spaniards.
    Spain had a good combination of pikes, muskets, 3 cavalry units and one cannon.

    On the second one, I tried to outnumber even more spaniards.
    They had only pikes and muskets, plus one single cavalry unit.
    The match was pretty much even for long time. If they had more cavalry they might have won though.

    Last edited by falcom4ever; March 17, 2015 at 09:21 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaper View Post
    It will be hard to balance it... It is true that Americans have default advantage in numbers, it's in their decription.. Maybe some script like 'the last standing' would help AI America to defend themselves, something like - if Inca have one settlement, then they will get two full stacks, like 'total alert' or like that something...
    Hum... Maybe I will go for your last stat idea in the campain . I would implement it just for americans.




    I think I managed to balance more realisticly the units. I played two battles. First one with early spain units 800 soldiers (half pike half musket and 1 cavalry) against 1600 heavy mayan army. It was a trista noche remake haha, I lost but was not steamrolled though.
    Then I played with elite spanish units (best pike, late muskets, 2 cavalry and 1 cannon against 2700 quite mediocre aztec units. I won with very few casualities. I lost only "150" soldiers while Aztecs lost half of their army.

    This mod will be so much fun once completed. It was my first battles and I really enjoyed it.
    Last edited by falcom4ever; March 17, 2015 at 11:28 PM.

  9. #9
    Treaper's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Must say, I had something simillar in Expanded Americas once, as your first battle. Portugese attacked me, and I as Mayans was totally crushed. I had over 1600 men, and they simply shot them all. When I reached their lines, half of my army lied dead. But on the other side, it's realistic...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    No challenge no fun

  11. #11
    Treaper's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Of course But it will not be so fun if in all games Europeans will steamroll all others

  12. #12

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Well they probably won't share the world lika pie, but if you play with Kongo for ex you won't have a peaceful life.

  13. #13
    Treaper's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Yeah, different factions, different campaings I always think about the most crazy thinks, like move whole nation to different place and start an empire... Can be funny to see Mongols in America

  14. #14

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Actually on Europa Universalis it's on of the strategies. With small factions you often cannot develop in Europe, because it's too crowded and full of super powers.
    So basically, you sail somewhere (most of the time Americas), move the capital and build an empire. Then when you are big enough you come back to Europe punish them all haha.

    But well on TW games I don't know how effective it would be, since there are not that many regions.
    Last edited by falcom4ever; March 20, 2015 at 05:03 AM.

  15. #15
    Treaper's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    That seems to be very interesting, I never played campaing like 'move and then return to punish'

  16. #16

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Another cultural gap between factions are the city sizes.

    Most of European cities are tiny compare to Tenochtitlan, Cusco, most of cities in India and China.
    Altough European might have slightly better armies, this will probably give huge economic boost to these factions.

  17. #17
    AntonisTheGreek's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Either put all buildable buildings for the Mesoamericans in their cities,make cities all settlements in Mexico and Peru,and improve the "increase in tradeable goods" attribute of the market building,or make a money script that adds a big amount of money to any faction holds the cities in Mexico.Perhaps we could have modelers make large & huge cities for the Mesoamericans.

    A question:Are you thinking to add that "Westernization" thing in this?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Technologic gap

    Gold and inflation then

    I think I will give up the westernization thing. Its not worth it since the captured horses firearms do the same thing and keep original faction personality.

    As for the script, I will implement scripts that give advantage if you control certain regions. For example if you control hormuz and masqat you get persian gulf hegemony bonus.
    Or Florida, cuba and venezuela you get carabean gulf hegemony bonus.
    Last edited by falcom4ever; March 21, 2015 at 11:17 PM.

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