A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

[ray243]

One thing I dislike about vanilla Total war is CA might have nerfed the Romans too much to the extend it doesn't really reflect the conditions of the time period of the starting campaign. The Empire in the late 4th to 5th century isn't in as bad of a position as it was by the late fifth century. The Roman army seems to be much bigger before the death of Stilicho and the defection of most of the Roman Army to the Visigoths. Is there a way to ensure a better level of historical "authenticism" for the size of the Roman Army? It would at the very least make it harder for any barbarian players to defeat the Romans.

[shawn858]

well for a start it would be good to edit out those half killed units in some armies that the WRE starts with.

But before they can depict the roman army at this time correctly, we'd need more foederati units for the WRE and some for the ERE

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

I'm about 25 turns into my legendary Saxon campaign, using "Imperialem_Oeconomiae_Roman_Help" mod. So far, the Romans have actually GAINED a region, extending the Roman empire back up to the Antonine Wall. The mod basically scales economies to Imperium Level. As Rome starts higher than everyone else, they start with a big advantage, but once everyone else catches up, they'll begin to be pushed back.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

One thing I dislike about vanilla Total war is CA might have nerfed the Romans too much to the extend it doesn't really reflect the conditions of the time period of the starting campaign. The Empire in the late 4th to 5th century isn't in as bad of a position as it was by the late fifth century. The Roman army seems to be much bigger before the death of Stilicho and the defection of most of the Roman Army to the Visigoths. Is there a way to ensure a better level of historical "authenticism" for the size of the Roman Army? It would at the very least make it harder for any barbarian players to defeat the Romans.

Agreed, the Roman army was not a disorderly mob, but a professional fighting force, as it had always been during Principate. Difference in this period the army has adapted to fight defensively, as opposed to offensive campaigns of conquest ie Trajan, but was still more than capable of operating across the Danube etc.
Why CA have given Romans weak units and a broken military is just to get an end result I think, instead of giving scripts and decent Gothic and Vandal hordes etc

I am also very disappointed to learn we cannot mod AoR Roman recruitment, as CA in their infinite wisdom have removed the feature!

[Maximus183]

I've been looking into trying to stabilize the WRE starting situation for myself but ESF editing is semi-uncharted territory for me, but it shouldn't be all that complicated. And regarding the AOR function, it doesn't seem like it's been removed necessarily, but the tab in PFM that listed the region requirements for units in Rome 2 isn't "there" anymore. But, there's a bunch of tabs with unknown effects, and it's possible it's simply one of these tabs. We'll be able to know for sure once the Assembly kit for Attila comes out.

[Majorien]

totally agree Ray : it's really ridiculous starting a WRE campaign with "legions" wich names are coming from the principate (in Attila you can have a legio Victrix with cornuti or herculiani units : inception level reached !!) and so weak that they are destroyed by the hundred and thirty -eighth barbarian army faced in five rounds.
Second point, the number of roman rebellion after 6-7 turns... unplayable

[Cope]

I'm about 25 turns into my legendary Saxon campaign, using "Imperialem_Oeconomiae_Roman_Help" mod. So far, the Romans have actually GAINED a region, extending the Roman empire back up to the Antonine Wall. The mod basically scales economies to Imperium Level. As Rome starts higher than everyone else, they start with a big advantage, but once everyone else catches up, they'll begin to be pushed back.

You got a link to that? Would like to see how it works out.

[Dresden]

I think CA wanted to make playing the Romans a challenge for the player, but they ended up causing the AI severe issues. I wonder if something can be done to help the AI but not make it too easy on the player.

[Mount Everfresh]

You got a link to that? Would like to see how it works out.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14422681

[Maximus183]

I think CA wanted to make playing the Romans a challenge for the player, but they ended up causing the AI severe issues. I wonder if something can be done to help the AI but not make it too easy on the player.

Is there a way to add hidden income to the faction when the AI plays them and not when the player does? Wasn't that the case with rome 2? If so that could be one thing. I still think the WRE needs to be stabilized a bit more than it originally is, particularly military wise and financially. Public order can remain unchanged I'd say, since if you start out with a better income and more formidable army, it'll be easier to deal with.

[Dresden]

Yes, you can do it through scripting.

[aquarisu]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14422681

I have seen the screenshot here and I was wondering what mod is the one that changes the roman empires coat of arms to the Chi Rho. Any insight is much appreciated.

[aquarisu]

Oops srry double post, posted on the wrong thread please if anyone can delete it

[Geronimo2006]

totally agree Ray : it's really ridiculous starting a WRE campaign with "legions" wich names are coming from the principate (in Attila you can have a legio Victrix with cornuti or herculiani units : inception level reached !!) and so weak that they are destroyed by the hundred and thirty -eighth barbarian army faced in five rounds.
Second point, the number of roman rebellion after 6-7 turns... unplayable

The Herculiani Seniores existed until the 7th century. It was created by Diocletian. Its shield in the Notitia Dignitatum is below.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the quality of the WRE army in 395. Well according to a lecture I saw online recently from Canada, the WRE army was badly mauled by the Battle of the Frigidus and Stillicho badly neglected it, in part because he was an Easterner. The army of Augustus it was most certainly not.

[stalker33]

They should start with, for example, two half-full stacks of comitatenses or palatini type troops supported with some archers and scout equites. this should help the AI and also make the gameplay againt the empires more interesting

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

@Geronimo2006. Not sure if I understand your point fully, the Herculiani Seniores lasting until after this time period was not being disputed, only that the names of legions carried Principate era titles. As for a comparison of the armies of different eras I will just say they were adapted for their purposes. But the army of the Principate was most certainly not infallible, it suffered defeats and humiliation too.

[Majorien]

@Geronimo2006 : GAP is right, i'm not questionning the presence of Herculiani. That's why i love IB-SAI, the more it is historically accurate, the more i enjoy playing RTW.
But :
if Herculiani, legio palatina, is available, why not the others (Iovii, Primani...) ?
If cornutes, auxilia palatina, is available, why not the others (at least their counterparts Petulantes, Celtae...)
Why the other type of roman units are for instance "legio" without names and proper shield pattern ?

And, how crazy is raising a "legio" with a name coming from the prinicpate (ferrata, victrix...) wich could host units from OTHER legio : having for instance a legio Victrix with Herculiani units is like playing WWII as Patton with his Third Army with M1-Abrams Tanks of the1st Cavalry Division...

[Majorien]

BTW it seems that a modder worked on the unit's names, at least generic : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...tia+dignitatum

[Ritmas]

I think CA wanted to make playing the Romans a challenge for the player, but they ended up causing the AI severe issues. I wonder if something can be done to help the AI but not make it too easy on the player.

How about having two different mods with different startpos, one as playing as WRE/ERE keeping the challange at vanilla lvl or even harder and one for any other faction, buffing up WRE/ERE for the AI?

[Renown]

running two mods may be a bit much for most people.

What I suggest is instead scripting like someone suggested above. Script either a) additional armies, or b) additional money.

I'm not familiar with this game's scripting (though I'll look into it). Garrison additions may be good.

OR... ignore scripting entirely and go via difficulty options. Raise the negative side effects for higher difficulty levels for the player.

Let them play VH Rome, or Hard/Medium Franks/Saxons, etc.