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Thread: [RESOURCE] Combat and Unit Planner

  1. #1

    Default [RESOURCE] Combat and Unit Planner

    Greetings fellow forumites

    As we're making progress on several areas of the mod, I thought it'd be appropriate to share some of it and provide some hopefully interesting insight in how we're designing a certain part of it; the battles. Some of you may already have played our battle preview modification, which although considered finished for its purpose, does not retain the full extent of the combat changes. We decided that we wanted to motivate our decisions better with the help of a systematized balance, furthermore making each set of equipment - and by extent unit - more justice in the historical context.

    I will stress that this is a work in progress, it is by no means finished and will with certainty undergo more changes as they become necessary. As of now, we've begun to list weapons of the period and define their characteristics. These characteristics contribute towards their melee attack and defense values, which a unit possessing that weapon will retain. There will be modifying elements based on troop experience, mentality and training among other things.

    In this image, you can see an excerpt of the current progress of the upcoming battle balance.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    My hope is that this will generate a discussion in which people can provide their knowledge or opinions on the topic, helping to create a more accurate balance. If you have any idea, suggestion or input, please share it.

    The google document is available here. For the integrity of the work, it is only visible to people with the link but cannot be manipulated or commented on in any way without authorization first. Therefore, please leave comments here on the thread. I'd like to apologize for the google version in the picture above being in Swedish.



    First Progress Update

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    All combat equipment in the modification is thought to have some implications on the performance of the soldier. As familiar, a cuirass would improve the soldier's armour. What we've done is to add an additional function (or lack thereof) for a lot of equipment though. The type of armour worn by a unit does not exclusively change its ability to mitigate damage, but in some cases reduces manouverability and therefore the defensive capabilities of the unit. As a rule, the heavier the armour, the lower the flexibility. The construction plays a relevant role in this as well. This meaning, there will be a trade-off which you have to form an opinion about. Similarly, armour is going to play a part in the recruitment and maintenance cost of a unit.

    Shields are no exception to this. Smaller, more manouverable shields will often have superior defense but less coverage (protection against projectiles). Every shield, with a few exceptions, will add an offensive bonus to the wielder. How large this bonus is depends on the shape, size and weight - smaller shields will typically have the upper hand in this. A Caetra, for example, gives a unit +2 attack and +5 defence, but provides less protection against missiles. A Scutum, by comparison, gives +6 defence but only +1 attack. As larger shields are tougher to manouver, the intention is to add a flanking penalty of sorts for units using those. Units with smaller shields will retain greater agility and therefore be more flexible on the battlefield, capable of more effectively dealing with threats on the sides - unless they rout first!

    When it comes to the weapon, each is thought out to have a set of techniques which with it could be used. Spears would have been used primarily for thrusting, while swords and maces on the other hand could be used to cut, thurst or bash someone with. The amount of techniques a weapon allows plays a significant part in determining its attack value. Certain techniques will be more valuable than others and therefore provide more attack points. Precision is another measurement of its effectiveness in combat. As a rule here, shorter weapons will have greater precision, as any movement with the weapon will be more in line with your body's (arm) movement. It's seen as how effective the weapon is at overcoming enemy evasive measures - a shield or just movement, essentially. Longer weapons such as spears will be less precise, partly because it's also harder to strike in the right place at greater distances. Pikes have the least precision of all weapons, but will be superior in other regards. Two final measurements of effectiveness would be initiative and rate of strikes. Initiative is just what the name implies. Longer weapons will provide greater initiative, but it's also seen as a psychological aspect of combat that can be modified based on what we call "troop mentality". Rate of strikes is, to make things short, how quick aggressive initiatives can be mounted. The final attack score, equivalent of the sum of these four factors, will be modified depending on various other variables as well, mirroring the greater initiative and comfort with a weapon a more experienced soldier would have, or the lack of initiative and understanding of the weapon's fields of usages an inexperienced soldier might have.

    This is where we're at currently. Up next are morale, fatigue, unit sizes, cost and maintenance and various modifying elements to combat prowess. We have an idea of how we want to design/balance these already, but suggestions and requests are more than welcome. The more opinions and experience we can gather, the better the end result will be.

    Sincerely, the AE team
    Last edited by Sheridan; March 16, 2015 at 04:46 AM.
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  2. #2

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat in Ancient Empires

    salut Sheridan ! votre projet m intéresse de plus en plus ! j suis assez débutant en modding mais très motivé pour participer si vous etes interessés hésites pas à me pm !

  3. #3

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat in Ancient Empires

    Salut Nutsh!

    My French isn't very good - borderline non-existent to be frank - but google translate did the job. We'd happily have you on board the team. Motivation is really the key component so it can more than make up for a lack in experience. Very much looking forward to hear your ideas and what you can contribute with. If you want, for easier communication, you can add me on Steam: philipebast1

    Best regards
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  4. #4

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat in Ancient Empires

    ahahah fair enough can t find you on steam :O

  5. #5

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat in Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutsh View Post
    ahahah fair enough can t find you on steam :O
    Try me or ABH, we have the same steam names
    Talk soon.

    Edit: okay very soon then xD
    Last edited by Petellius; March 14, 2015 at 09:14 AM.
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat in Ancient Empires

    Added you via Petellius' list now
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  7. #7

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    "to be Frank"?

    Hahahaha I see what you did there.

  8. #8

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Kassandros View Post
    "to be Frank"?

    Hahahaha I see what you did there.
    I think that was an accident, don't think his humour is that sophisticated xD hehehehehe....
    Vespasian's own: Up the Augusta! For Cato!

    AE: Battle Balancing and BAI.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    I hope it was an accident. The time spent coming up with puns can be better spent working.


  10. #10

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    Party pooper!

    I though you were french until that post Sheridan so I am the only cool frenchman, I guess?



    Again wonderful job on the combat, its extremely rare to see a working 1HP system.
    Last edited by Butan; March 15, 2015 at 08:27 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    Yes that was an accident haha

    I was too excited at the time to worry about writing good puns. Butan, you're not alone anymore since Nutsh has joined the team (and done a good job already with the combat!). It's shaping up very nicely now and in a week or so we should have a finished balance.
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  12. #12

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    Progress Update

    All combat equipment in the modification is thought to have some implications on the performance of the soldier. As familiar, a cuirass would improve the soldier's armour. What we've done is to add an additional function (or lack thereof) for a lot of equipment though. The type of armour worn by a unit does not exclusively change its ability to mitigate damage, but in some cases reduces manouverability and therefore the defensive capabilities of the unit. As a rule, the heavier the armour, the lower the flexibility. The construction plays a relevant role in this as well. This meaning, there will be a trade-off equilibrium which you have to form an opinion about. Similarly, armour is going to play a part in the recruitment and maintenance cost of a unit.

    Shields are no exception to this. Smaller, more manouverable shields will often have superior defense but less coverage (protection against projectiles). Every shield, with a few exceptions, will add an offensive bonus to the wielder. How large this bonus is depends on the shape, size and weight - smaller shields will typically have the upper hand in this. A Caetra, for example, gives a unit +2 attack and +5 defence, but provides less protection against missiles. A Scutum, by comparison, gives +6 defence but only +1 attack. As larger shields are tougher to manouver, the intention is to add a flanking penalty of sorts for units using those. Units with smaller shields will retain greater agility and therefore be more flexible on the battlefield, capable of more effectively dealing with threats on the sides - unless they rout first!

    When it comes to the weapon, each is thought out to have a set of techniques which with it could be used. Spears would have been used primarily for thrusting, while swords and maces on the other hand could be used to cut, thurst or bash someone with. The amount of techniques a weapon allows plays a significant part in determining its attack value. Certain techniques will be more valuable than others and therefore provide more attack points. Precision is another measurement of its effectiveness in combat. As a rule here, shorter weapons will have greater precision, as any movement with the weapon will be more in line with your body's (arm) movement. It's seen as how effective the weapon is at overcoming enemy evasive measures - a shield or just movement, essentially. Longer weapons such as spears will be less precise, partly because it's also harder to strike in the right place at greater distances. Pikes have the least precision of all weapons, but will be superior in other regards. Two final measurements of effectiveness would be initiative and rate of strikes. Initiative is just what the name implies. Longer weapons will provide greater initiative, but it's also seen as a psychological aspect of combat that can be modified based on what we call "troop mentality". Rate of strikes is, to make things short, how quick aggressive initiatives can be mounted. The final attack score, equivalent of the sum of these four factors, will be modified depending on various other variables as well, mirroring the greater initiative and comfort with a weapon a more experienced soldier would have, or the lack of initiative and understanding of the weapon's fields of usages an inexperienced soldier might have.

    This is where we're at currently. Up next are morale, fatigue, unit sizes, cost and maintenance and various modifying elements to combat prowess. We have an idea of how we want to design/balance these already, but suggestions and requests are more than welcome. The more opinions and experience we can gather, the better the end result will be.

    Sincerely, the AE team
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  13. #13
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    I have some problems with some stats in the sheet, mainly maces, clubs and axes. They have high attack and fast movement and I cannot bring this together. A bit the same is for the two-handed axe.

    All the weapons are unbalanced weapons in the way that the center of gravity is far away from the hand. It needs to be because that's how the weapons get their energy, bringing mass to take effect. If you mean with "fast" the ability to make a lot of moves in a short time (and the description of the two-handed axe seems to hint at it) than it is not possible to move an axe as fast as a sword and deliver the same or more damage with it. Of course, if you land a hit with an axe on a helmet, more energy is transferred than with a sword of the same weight because more of the weight (better: mass) of the axe takes effect. But if you miss it's much more difficult to control and retract the axe. At least that's my experience with tomahawk fighting. I would prefer to have axe, clubs and maces with more damage against armoured targets but less speed than swords. Against unarmoured enemies the sword should have more damage than clubs and maces.

    Over all the sword is a better weapon than an axe and an axe is a better weapon than maces and clubs. Non-edged weapons are usually not very effective tools of war, were not used very often in war (contrary to their great role in fantasy games or martial arts) and had more or less special niches (like maces being used against heavily armoured foes with the slogan: better than nothing).

    Two-handed axes like all polearms are great weapons with good reach and enough weight to be very dangerous. I appreciate that you don't see them as dump club-like weapons. Nevertheless they are unbalanced and cannot be used extremely fast. Their damage should be higher however. When you consider the energy, two handed strikes deliver almost double the energy than similar one-handed ones.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat Balance in Ancient Empires

    Thanks for your feedback Geala.

    Everything hasn't been sorted out yet when it comes to weapons, but we have a firm idea of the concept. Normal axes have average speed currently by the way, but we haven't yet changed maces or clubs which very arguably should be around that same level. You make some very valid points on the balance of axes and other weapons, which I agree with. The two-handed axe is a more difficult matter, similar to spears or pikes. They aren't really fast weapons in the sense that you can strike at an opponent in short intervals, like you could with a smaller sword or dagger/knife. It also depends on if they're used with a shield and in formation too, of course. But as they're used in a different way, rather "deterring" the enemy and forcing them to stay at a distance, they need some kind of representation of that.

    Differentiating damage per target type is possible. But then you would have to give swords higher base damage compared to axes, but the armour-piercing effect (dividing armour by a certain figure) to the latter. In effect, that'd make both weapons powerful against low-armoured troops, but axes much more so against more well-armoured troops. Differentiating them in any other way doesn't really work, as much better as it might be.

    On the energy of axes, that appears reasonable enough. The thing is, working with rather low armour figures, it weapon damages mustn't be too high or it'll be difficult to balance appropriately. I could increase the damage to 5, possibly 6, but whether it gives desirable results in the game or not remains to be seen.
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  15. #15

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat and Unit Planner

    A new addition to the online spreadsheet is the Unit Planner. This rather simple tool handles all the background calculations in a smooth way, meaning you select the specifications via a dropbox for a unit and all its statistics are generated. As the image suggests, training, experience and mentality are three modifying factors beyond the basic equipment a unit is in possession of. Note that this is a work in progress and while many statistics are accurate, others are not such as cost, upkeep, ammunition and morale.

    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


  16. #16
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat and Unit Planner

    I would like to see different kinds of gladii, since they evolved with the enemies they were fighting.
    The Gladius Hispaniensis had a reinforced point, to penetrate deeper into enemy armor, whereas the Pompei Gladius was lighter, since most of the romans enemies at the time of its use wore little to no armor.

    Also could weapon weight also influence stamina?
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  17. #17

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Combat and Unit Planner

    Different kinds of gladii might make it in, we'll see at a later point. As for weapons, they do already impact stamina like the rest of the equipment (and training). We've tried to be very thorough when developing this system.
    Campaign modder for Ancient Empires


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