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Thread: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

  1. #1

    Default Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Hello, my name is Krozzy and this is my first mod.

    Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat

    Download here
    http://www.mediafire.com/download/yg...ile_Combat.zip

    Install Directions
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    To install, extract the zip and place contents in your Steam\SteamApps\common\Total War Attila\data folder
    Then at the TW:Attila launch screen, click MOD MANAGER, check ENABLE OUT-OF-DATE MODS, then check Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missle Combat


    Documentation

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Bow (self-bow) was made from a simple piece of high quality wood. It was easily maintained and required little skill to shoot; In excahnge the primitive Self Bow lacked power and range.

    Long Bows and Composite Bows were relatively close in distance and strength at the time of Attila. The super heavy draw Long Bow was only being pioneered at the time; it would not be used on a military scale until the time of the English.


    Long Bow advantages: Easily made and maintained. Durable. Slightly longer and heavier arrows result in a tiny amount of armor penatration.
    Long Bow disadvantages: Difficult to shoot. Required a strong bowman.


    Composite Bow advantages: Smaller design required. Better energy transfer (easier to shoot).
    Composite Bow disadvantages: Considerable craftmanship required to produce. Low durablilty demanded constant care from over-use and environment.


    The Reflex Bow was a type of Composite Bow where its' resting state was curved in the opposite direction of the draw. This made it possible to have a high draw strength for a minimum size. This type of bow was craftmanship at it's finest and was ideal for horsemen.


    Reflex Bow advantages: Minimum size. Designed for horseback.
    Reflex Bow disadvantages: Master craftmanship required to produce. Low durablilty demanded constant care from over-use and environment. Designed to be as small as possible and lacking a bit of range and power in comparison to infantry bows.


    Crossbows is a bit of a touchy subject at the time of Attila. We know that China had working crossbows as early as the 4th century BC. These were used to launch solid bronze Bolts at range comparable to bows. The main advantage was armor peircing.


    Ancient Greece also had Crossbows of sorts that resembled bows (Gastraphetes).


    There is little doubt that Crossbow technology was widespread during the time of Attila, but the design was most likely primitive in most of the western world. Also, the idea of mass manufacturing was more or less unkown (Qin and Han Dynasty being an exception).


    Crossbows would have been made one at a time by highly skilled craftsmen, making a unit of Crossbowmen very expensive and awe-inspiring.


    Crossbow advantages: Can shoot heavy armor peicing bolts at a distance comparable to most bows. Very easy to shoot.
    Crossbow disadvantages: Master craftmanship required to produce.


    The Sling has overwelming historical evidence showing widespread use in war. It has been repeatedly mentioned how the sling can out range the bow, although maximum range was achieved using a very high and innacurate arc. There was two ways the sling could be used in war. It could be carried by men and used a long range harrassment weapon or used in a cohesive unit with volleys simular to bows. There is no doubt that the Sling is a deadly missle weapon, but the majority of historical evidence points to it being used mostly for harrasement and lacking the killing power of the bow in traditional volley range.


    Because of the way slings work in TW: Attila, I am changing the regular version to do decent damage and the long version will do less damage with more range to represent the harrasement type.


    Sling advantages: Cheap, easy to make.
    Sling disadvantages: Required a lifetime of training to be accurate. Stones and lead bullets lacked the killing power of arrows.


    On Flaming, Whistling, and Heavy ammunition; Units in Tota War can freely change between these types on the fly unrealisticaly, but this is balanced by a shared and low ammuntion pool. Flaming shot for one is very unrealistic as each man would need a fire to light thier arrows. Flaming arrows were used almost exclusivly to light structures on fire or to terrorize enemies. I will make some changes to reflect on this.


    On Bow Calvarly; There is plenty of evidence that suggests Bow Calv (and any elite archers) could hold 3 to 6 arrows in thier hands and shoot at the same time. This suggests that they would loose 4 to 7 arrows in rapid fire before withdrawling. At the moment in TW: Attila, Bow Calv has a slower reload time than infantry for some reason.


    Because Total War: Attila is a game and not a simulator, we cannot make things completely historicaly accurate. There would have to mechanics added such as arrow resupply, long range sling harrasement, etc. Also keeping with the theme of "Vanilla Tweaks" I will not make changes that stray too far from the experience CA has made.


    -All Bow Calvary share reload times with infantry (was higher)
    -All special ammunition will result in %20 loss in range.
    -All special ammunition will result in %20 loss in damage.
    -Flaming shot adds %100 more reload time (except on ships)
    -Flaming shot bonus to calv reduced to 5 (down from 10)
    -Whistling shot bonus to calv reduced to 5 (down from 10)
    -Whistling shot reload time set to be the same as standard shot (was slower)
    -Heavy shot increases armor penatration by %20
    -Heavy shot reload time set to be the same as standard shot (was slower)


    -Bow (self-bow) damage increased to 40 (up from 35)


    -Composite bow range increased to 200 (up from 150)
    -Composite bow damage increased to 40 (up from 35)


    -Reflex bow range increased to 175 (up from 150)
    -Reflex bow damage increased to 40 (up from 35)
    -Reflex bow reload time decreased to 12 (down from 17)


    -Crossbow range increased to 175 (up from 125)
    -Crossbow reload time increased to 50 (up from 43)


    -Sling range increased to 200 (up from 125)
    -Sling damage decreased to 35 (down from 50)
    -Sling reload time increased to 15 (up from 10)


    -Long Sling range increased to 240 (up from 175)
    -Long Sling damage decreased to 25 (down from 50)
    -Long Sling reload time increased to 15 (up from 10)


    -Scattershot Sling range increased to 150 (up from 125)
    -Scattershot Sling damage increased to 30 (up from 20)
    -Scattershot Sling reload time increased to 20 (up from 10)


    -Long Scattershot Sling range increased to 180 (up from 175)
    -Long Scattershot Sling damage decreased to 20 (down from 25)
    -Long Scattershot Sling reload time increased to 20 (up from 10)





    Please be kind and helpful with feedback, thanks!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    My friend and I just played a co op campaign for 5 hours, Seems pretty fun so far with this mod. I like that slingers can hit from so far away but do less damage, feels more historical.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Hey this might be a silly question but, how do i edit my post to include updates?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    You need to reach 25 posts for this. Its a bit for people who start posting on this forum with threads that needs maintenance but no way to get around it.


    I have a ranged mod and I wanted to debate with you on some things you have done that arent like my modifications:


    You put the reflex bows below the composite bows in range, but in my mind the composite bows is harder to shoot for the same draw power than the reflex bow (which is kind of a recurve composite bows). I theorized that for this reason, a recurve composite bows can have a bigger draw power and be shot with the same "difficulty" than a similar composite bow, which result in reflex bow outranging composite bows.
    Also since reflex bows are attributed to the huns, I wanted to give them an edge so they shoot farther than all other bows in the game.

    While it may sound unrealistic, I also think it could be a good idea to add 25-50 range to mounted archers because they often used the speed of their horses to propel their arrows. The problem is that when they shot backward or standing they would still have that unrealistic range bonus, but I think its an idea to work with, especially to give hunnic horse archers an even bigger edge.




    Good work on the rest of the stuff, I can definitely relate to what you have done.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Quote Originally Posted by Butan View Post
    You need to reach 25 posts for this. Its a bit for people who start posting on this forum with threads that needs maintenance but no way to get around it.


    I have a ranged mod and I wanted to debate with you on some things you have done that arent like my modifications:


    You put the reflex bows below the composite bows in range, but in my mind the composite bows is harder to shoot for the same draw power than the reflex bow (which is kind of a recurve composite bows). I theorized that for this reason, a recurve composite bows can have a bigger draw power and be shot with the same "difficulty" than a similar composite bow, which result in reflex bow outranging composite bows.
    Also since reflex bows are attributed to the huns, I wanted to give them an edge so they shoot farther than all other bows in the game.

    While it may sound unrealistic, I also think it could be a good idea to add 25-50 range to mounted archers because they often used the speed of their horses to propel their arrows. The problem is that when they shot backward or standing they would still have that unrealistic range bonus, but I think its an idea to work with, especially to give hunnic horse archers an even bigger edge.




    Good work on the rest of the stuff, I can definitely relate to what you have done.
    Ah ok, thanks for the heads up on the posts to edit.

    The reason I put reflex bow range under composite is because of the research I did on what warriors that most likely used them. It would seem that reflex bows were traditionally made for horse archers. This lead me into researching horse archer accounts and tactics.
    It would seem that (and this IS debated by historians) Reflex bows were made very small in size. This was to allow fast and easy draw, aim, parthian shooting, etc. while riding a horse. The Reflex bow was the only bow able to be this small and still retain the killing power of a composite bow. The main tactics used involved riding along flanks/rears and loosing rapid volleys at close range temping enemies to follow for parthian shots and formation breaking. There is little evidence to support that horse archers would have the bows/training to meet the range of traditional foot archer volleys.

    However, foot archers with Relfex bows could be handled differently. I would imagine they would have a larger design to meet or even out-range Composite bows?
    How many infantry units are equiped with Reflex bows in TW:Attila?

    Also you do make a good point about using the speed of their horses to propel their arrows. I wonder if there is any way to mod this?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Another note, perhaps I could further increase the reload rate and accuracy of Relfex Bows to simulate the tactics. Still need a lot of testing.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Now I'm split, your idea has merits. Maybe I will switch composite/reflex range around.
    What I definitely agree with is a composite is harder to pull (slower rate of fire) and reflex not (higher rate of fire), for the same skilled/muscled man. It is already like this in my mod, but the difference isnt very very high yet, maybe I will accentuate it.

    But I think that for sure a recurve composite bows/mongol bows could easily outrange self bows, either on horse or foot because a bow has the same draw potential on foot or horse (just require more skill when on horseback)... dont you think?
    And I dont think that the reflex bows for foot archers are any different, at least not in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krozzy View Post
    How many infantry units are equiped with Reflex bows in TW:Attila?
    One infantry (uar archers) and tons of horsemen (mostly huns or even all).

    Quote Originally Posted by Krozzy View Post
    Also you do make a good point about using the speed of their horses to propel their arrows. I wonder if there is any way to mod this?
    I dont think, but since there is a row for "x_horse" its easy to tweak a little bit.
    Though my main idea is always applying same "projectile" potential for each weapons because a weapon is always the same in every hands. I prefer modding units stats to show "mastery" and difference, only some exceptions need be shown IMO.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Quote Originally Posted by Butan View Post
    But I think that for sure a recurve composite bows/mongol bows could easily outrange self bows, either on horse or foot because a bow has the same draw potential on foot or horse (just require more skill when on horseback)... dont you think?
    And I dont think that the reflex bows for foot archers are any different, at least not in game.



    One infantry (uar archers) and tons of horsemen (mostly huns or even all).
    ok so vanilla bow (self-bow) range is 150m
    vanilla Composite bow range is also 150m (we both agree to increase this range, mine at 200m)

    Following the hints that Reflex bows where invented to be mini versions of Composite bows for hit and run horse tactics, (debated by historians) I set the range to 175m along with the fastest reload rate of all bows. Could they shoot as far (or farther) than a full sized Composite bow? I don't know...kind of split on the idea myself. But the conclusion I am came to; even if they could, they specialized in the the rapid fire flanking maneuvers, loosing volleys at close range. How close is also debated (10m to 100m).

    The other glaring question is the uar archers. They are foot troops equipped with Reflex Bows. Did they have larger bows made for foot infantry? I could imagine a large Reflex bow (designed for foot archers instead of horse archers) having devastating range and power. The reflex bows historically recreated today for on-foot target shooting claim they can shoot up to 300m.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    side track(and because I would like to reach my 25 posts), I value your opinions Butan. Can you check the thread i just started HERE.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Quote Originally Posted by Krozzy View Post
    Could they shoot as far (or farther) than a full sized Composite bow? I don't know...kind of split on the idea myself. But the conclusion I am came to; even if they could, they specialized in the the rapid fire flanking maneuvers, loosing volleys at close range. How close is also debated (10m to 100m).
    I think that since its hard to determine what was reality, gameplay-wise I think its good if reflex horse archers have a smaller range than composite BUT have like 1.5 or 2x the reload rate of composite (for the tactical reasons you mentionned, but also because the bow was made for easier shooting). Could even give them slightly better accuracy overall?
    Uar archers, we could just give them the composite bows instead, or they keep the reflex bows and have same range/reload rate than horse archers: the reload rate itself is a good reason to recruit that unit.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    One thing I noticed; Was playing a co-op campaign last night, and on a couple occasions we noticed that archers(longbows I think) were loosing volleys about .5m above the heads of a unit in close range (about 50m).
    Two reasons came to mind:
    1. The majority of arrows were calculated as misses, so they just appeared to fly right over the unit.
    or
    2. Something got screwed up by increasing the range.

    Have you noticed anything like this in your mod?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Krozzy's Vanilla Tweaks Missile Combat (NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK)

    Might be the max elevation you set to longbows (and trajectory sight tolerance) make them unable to hit too close, because they cant aim down; this combined with the muzzle velocity (arrow travel speed) and calibration can upset archers.


    I have this too but not 100%, more like 20-50% miss and its just "normal" miss.
    Try lower muzzle velocity and/or lower max elevation (or if you are on "fixed" angle, put "low").
    Last edited by Butan; March 16, 2015 at 07:42 PM.

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