Battle mods compared

[johnmck]

Hey guys, not sure if anyone would be interested in this post, but I tried a few custom battles with the various battle mods that are on the TW center right now to get an idea for which one i like the most.

I played a defensive battle as the Danes vs. the Saxons and used the same units and same location in each battle. Some of the unit sizes were different because of the various mods, but i figured it would still give a good idea of the combat changes in each mod.

Danes: 1 viking captain, 4 chosen warriors, 2 viking raiders
Saxons:1 Chieftain with Gedriht, 4 chosen warriors, and 2 nordic axe warband

These are the important things i noticed about each mod:
WOFE- 14:15 minutes long, (160 unit size infantry) some didn't throw spears, routed at decently high numbers, only shiedwall ability, flanking is medium powerful

AttilaCombat- 9 minutes,larger units sizes (240 infantry), only shieldwall ability, flanking charges seemed to help

AttilaUmbraetProvatus- 11:18 minutes, larger unit sizes (260 infantry) attacking and defensive testudo ability, men rout at very low numbers

Attila the Great-,5:49, seems like one hp system, fast fatigue and recovery, 160 unit size, sometimes rout at very, low numbers, other times at higher numbers

CloseCombat Attila v07, 7:28 (160 infantry), slow fatigue, rout at a bit higher number than others, flanking very powerful

Radious Total War- 5:44, (160 infantry) fatigue is pretty quick, recovery pretty quick, frenzy and shieldwall ability, flanking charges powerful

Fall of the Eagles- 22:49 (160 infantry) slow fatigue, routed at high numbers, formation attack, unbreakable abilities, flanking charges not very powerful, rout at very, very low numbers

Verus committendi proelium modus A_5- 13:07, (160 infantry size) rout at high numbers, then returned to battle shortly before routing again, flanking charges powerful.

Let me know if you guys found this interesting/ informative as i don't mind doing more tests/ possibly videos on youtube.

Test 2:
Grassy plain, defending




FH-RA-RA-RA-FH
-------GN


1x Germanic Nobles
3x Royal Anstrutiones
2x Francisca Heerbann

I'd wait until the enemy general had charged my centre before flanking around the side with my general.


Format:
Unit Size:
Abilities:
Fatigue (recovery):
Charges:
Pila (or axes):
Flanking:
Routing style:
Length:


Vanilla:
TBA


CloseCombat v08 (with 1.5x unit size submod):
240
Shieldwall and unbreakable
Slow fatigue
Can be quite powerful
Pila do quite a bit (10 to heavy,60+ to medium infantry)
Very powerful
Rout at 70ish, will return
7:14


Attila Combat:
160
Shield wall
Pretty signifcant fatigue, slow recovery
Less powerful than CC
Pila not very effective (3 to heavy, 10 to medium)
Pretty powerful
Rout at low numbers (20) dont return
6:37


Umbra et Provacatus:
260
Shieldwall, attacking and defensive testudo
Slow fatigue
Not very powerful
Not very effective (1-2 to heavy, 5 to medium but very powerful from behind)
Pretty powerful
Slow rout (40)
10:52


Radious:
160
Shieldwall, unbreakable, steady advance, steady advance, frenzied charge, killing spree
Slow fatigue
Charges are pretty powerful
Very effective (30 to heavy, 30 to medium)
Flanking very powerful (when possible as battles are so quick)
Slow rout (30s)
5:41


Attila the Great (WOFE, extended version):
160
Shieldwall
Faster fatigue (faster recovery)
Somewhat powerful
Somewhat effective (5 to heavy, 10 to medium)
Pretty powerful
Rout in 50s, will return
6:50




Verus Commitendi Proelium Modus:
160
Shieldwall, unbreakable, formation attack
Fast fatigue
Somewhat powerful
Somewhat effective (5 to heavy, 20 to medium)
Very powerful (especially on morale)
Rout at very high numbers (90s, and would return)
5:15




Fall of the Eagles:
160
Steady, unbreakable, formation attack
Slower fatigue
Somewhat powerful
Very effective (25 to heavy, 30 to medium)
Very powerful, especially on morale)
Rout in the 70s
7:25


Battle mod Challa style:
160
Shieldwall, steady
Slower fatigue
Pretty powerful
Effective (5 to heavy, 30 to medium)
Soemwhat powerful
Rout in 30s
5:00


Attila Battle Enhanced (arthalion):
160
Shieldwall, unbreakable
SLower fatigue
Somewhat powerful
Somewhat effective (5 to heavy, 10 to medium)
Somewhat powerful
Rout in 70s, will return
13:10

Test 3: Cav
1 x Germanic nobles
vs
1 x Germanic nobles
1 x Sacra Francisca

Format:
Mod Name:
Frontal Charge Casualties:
Rear Charge Casualties:

bigWOFE.pack
3
10


Atill_Umbra_Et_Provacatus
15
30


BattleModChalla
40
40


CloseCombat Attila v08
20
20


Radious
53
55


Verus Commitendi Proelium Modus
0
1? (hard to tell if it was because of the pinning force or the charge)


Arthalion Battle Enhanced
7
12


Fall of the Eagles
19
15

For more detailed explanations of each of these tests, you'll have to sift through the thread.

[Sheridan]

Attila the Great is the name of the file, the mod is Warriors of Faith. Both it and WOFE use the same basic set of changes, while the latter of the two provides a slower combat pace and a few additional changes to fatigue penalties and naval combat. Other than that they're near identical - just thought I'd point that out.

Fatigue is also generated and decreased slower in the basic version so.. you may have gotten that a little wrong.

[johnmck]

Ya i started to lose track of all the various mods and specific versions of mods. xP I can do a more indepth version if i get some good feedback. Thanks for your help!

[Sheridan]

My bad on the fatigue actually, you were right all along. Didn't keep track on those changes for the extended. Anyway it's an interesting list you've made. Out of curiosity, which mod had your favorite pace of combat (excluding any other features)?

[A Barbarian]

Nice list! Adding vanilla version would be interesting.

[WelshDragon]

Nice comparison, thanks. I have been using Radious and was curious how it compared to some of the other mods that looked interesting.

I would also like to hear some anecdotal analyses/comparisons after you do more tests!

[kanzy]

Good list and +rep from me, I played using AttilaUmbraetProvatus then switched to AttilaCombat for one battle and then Radious for one battle also and came back running to AttilaUmbraetProvatus it feels closer in combat to Rome 2 DEI then the two I have tried.

[Petellius]

If you would like I have a yet unreleased version of WOFE with larger unit sizes (what it was really intended for). Id be happy to send it to you

[r3dshift]

A great initiative by the OP. As mentioned above by someone else already, however, you need to add vanilla battle stats to the comparison list. Plus do further tests with armies comprising 10 and 20 units per side, including missile troops and cavalry as well. Perhaps videos could also be helpful.

[johnmck]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys! Glad to see other people are interested in this stuff to I'll definitely make some more updates to the thread so check back soon. I was actually making the list for myself then i figured it might be helpful to others xP

to sheridan: I' think i'd have to do more testing, but my initial thoughts are that Verus commitendi had the best "feeling" to it. I found that FOTE and WOFE were too long, thats just my opinion of couse, but I think anyone would get bored of watching it in 3x for 5 minutes just to finish off that final unit. Especially when a lot of battles in the campaign come down to a slugfest around the city gates.

to A Barbarian: I'll definitely add in a Vanilla version for comparison, only reason why i hadn't is because i've found vanilla to be a bit too quick. Heavy infantry getting slaughtered in 3 minutes seems wrong.

Kanzy: I think i agree with you for now, but I'll need to do some more testing, i haven't looked at missile or cav changes yet.

to Petellius: that would be great man, it's hard to keep up on all the updates for the various battles mods. I'll add it to the new version I'm making once you send it.

to r3dshift: The only reason why i didn't include missile and cavalry troops in the thread so far is i think it will be harder to keep the variables controlled. The more units in the battle, the greater the possibility that the AI will do something different which will mess up the Battle timer. What i might do is give the AI only melee infantry and then I can perform the same maneuvers with missile and cav for each test.

I also didn't want to get too much into the different unit stats that have been modified in each mod because that's definitely not my area of expertise, I'm just trying to put myself in the average Attila player's shoes. But i will say that i think the mods that raise morale are a bit overkill, since units won't rout until very low numbers, which defeats the purpose of Attila's "new" morale system.

[johnmck]

I just ran the Vanilla version, same units, same tactics and all that. I did it 3 times and got an average battle time of 7 minutes for comparison. I'm noticing some variation caused by a bug where the AI will sometimes try and move a unit that has been surrounded on both sides, through one of my two units. Since they are then considered on the move, my units will quickly slaughter them. Since it's kind of immersion breaking I might report it to the bug thread but it might just be related to my test variables.

[Petellius]

I just ran the Vanilla version, same units, same tactics and all that. I did it 3 times and got an average battle time of 7 minutes for comparison. I'm noticing some variation caused by a bug where the AI will sometimes try and move a unit that has been surrounded on both sides, through one of my two units. Since they are then considered on the move, my units will quickly slaughter them. Since it's kind of immersion breaking I might report it to the bug thread but it might just be related to my test variables.

Ive noticed this a lot too, its not just if its surrounded, ive seen it do it if a unit is just wavering. Its really odd. I found once or twice it would actually stop and recover its fatigue then charge back in, supposing its CA's answer to resting troops out of the line (it does not work at all).

[r3dshift]

Nah, routing AI units running headlessly into enemy lines and thereby getting massacred is a bug indeed (at least I hope it's not a feature...), you should report it.

[johnmck]

Test 2:
Grassy plain, defending




FH-RA-RA-RA-FH
-------GN


1x Germanic Nobles
3x Royal Anstrutiones
2x Francisca Heerbann

I'd wait until the enemy general had charged my centre before flanking around the side with my general.


Format:
Unit Size:
Abilities:
Fatigue (recovery):
Charges:
Pila (or axes):
Flanking:
Routing style:
Length:


Vanilla:
TBA


CloseCombat v08 (with 1.5x unit size submod):
240
Shieldwall and unbreakable
Slow fatigue
Can be quite powerful
Pila do quite a bit (10 to heavy,60+ to medium infantry)
Very powerful
Rout at 70ish, will return
7:14


Attila Combat:
160
Shield wall
Pretty signifcant fatigue, slow recovery
Less powerful than CC
Pila not very effective (3 to heavy, 10 to medium)
Pretty powerful
Rout at low numbers (20) dont return
6:37


Umbra et Provacatus:
260
Shieldwall, attacking and defensive testudo
Slow fatigue
Not very powerful
Not very effective (1-2 to heavy, 5 to medium but very powerful from behind)
Pretty powerful
Slow rout (40)
10:52


Radious:
160
Shieldwall, unbreakable, steady advance, steady advance, frenzied charge, killing spree
Slow fatigue
Charges are pretty powerful
Very effective (30 to heavy, 30 to medium)
Flanking very powerful (when possible as battles are so quick)
Slow rout (30s)
5:41


Attila the Great (WOFE, extended version):
160
Shieldwall
Faster fatigue (faster recovery)
Somewhat powerful
Somewhat effective (5 to heavy, 10 to medium)
Pretty powerful
Rout in 50s, will return
6:50




Verus Commitendi Proelium Modus:
160
Shieldwall, unbreakable, formation attack
Fast fatigue
Somewhat powerful
Somewhat effective (5 to heavy, 20 to medium)
Very powerful (especially on morale)
Rout at very high numbers (90s, and would return)
5:15




Fall of the Eagles:
160
Steady, unbreakable, formation attack
Slower fatigue
Somewhat powerful
Very effective (25 to heavy, 30 to medium)
Very powerful, especially on morale)
Rout in the 70s
7:25


Battle mod Challa style:
160
Shieldwall, steady
Slower fatigue
Pretty powerful
Effective (5 to heavy, 30 to medium)
Soemwhat powerful
Rout in 30s
5:00


Attila Battle Enhanced (arthalion):
160
Shieldwall, unbreakable
SLower fatigue
Somewhat powerful
Somewhat effective (5 to heavy, 10 to medium)
Somewhat powerful
Rout in 70s, will return
13:10

Just thought i'd redo the test and clean up the results overall to include some other battle mods. If i missed any mods or had any repeats in the list let me know and i'll update this post. I'll try and get to testing missile and cav soon. To test cavalry i'm probably going to just charge a unit of Sacra Francisca into Royal Anstrutiones and see what happens. Also if you guys want more of my feedback on each mod's pros and cons i can do that too, just wanted to stick to numbers for now. This took a couple of hours so hopefully you guys find this useful xP.

[Yerevan]

I only tested Close Combat and not long enough to judge its balancing but the way Luntik worked on soldiers pacing makes blobing disapear almost completely. Battles looks as good when zooming in than when zooming out. And the combat's pace and battle's lenght seems to be almost perfect (still a tad too fast though). It reminded me the epic battles I had with kingdom's mod InvasioBarbarorum2* (using faster battles submod by Granto).

* not to be mistaken with EB2. IB2 is the kingdom version of IB for RTW.

[geala]

Such tests are very interesting, you certainly need and get rep for this. I would wish an additional test of different units fighting each other. A theoretical example: a mod could be ok with armoured units of same kind aganist each other but suck when unarmoured + shielded fought against armoured because of some strange weapon-shield-armour balance. Of course I know how time consuming this is.

[johnmck]

Ya I've found myself using Close Combat the most in my campaigns, it might have the best combat feel to me, but that could just be bias, soI'd love to hear other people's perspectives. I may do more tests of different types of infantry troops at some point. Of course you guys can always add to the thread, just make sure you keep the testing as controlled as possible.

Overall though some things I've noticed that I like are: slower fatigue styles. The reason is that the majority of the battle time is when the unit is in combat so it gets boring to watch your units be "exhausted" the whole time. I like the faster recovery in some mods but I feel like the units don't get enough time to recover. So I'd say that slower fatigue/ faster recovery times would be optimal for me. As far as charges I like to seem some I it is casualties from the charge, otherwise it breaks the immersion if two units collide and noone dies right away. With Pila I like to see a reasonable amount of casualties, some mods there was barely any impact and others that would kill 1/3 of a unit. Somewhere in between would be ideal. I can understand why people would like radious mod for all the special abilities but I think that he needs to slow down his battle timers so those abilities can me more meaningful. You basically use them once and then the battle is over. I like the mods that make flanking a powerful force, especially on morale. I think that the mods that made melee block and Armour to high reduced the effectiveness of flanking. As far as morale changes I think it doesn't need to be increased very far from the vanilla values or it undermines the morale system that CA implemented in attila. These were very small sample sizes but I think that Close Combat had the best battle length tine for me. I think anytime that you have to 3x, speed after already flanking with your reserves is a shame. Of course these are just my thoughts and I welcome any debate.

Also if someone would be willing to do the same test using the vanilla edition that would be great. I couldn't get the modded status to go away in the top right of the screen. Next up cavalry charges!

[Arthalion]

Nice test, thx.
Personnaly i prefere longer battles, i like to have the time to watch my men fighting.
So im glad to see i succeed to do that and keep the game balanced in Attila Enhanced.

[Luntik]

Good initiative, before that I did not know about the available of so many battle mods.
I note, default unit size for CloseCombat =160

[wrcromartie]

Good thread!