And you whant to tell me that they were all making up crazy theories to suport creationism?
I know that there are many religious scientists, but I doubt that they are all "fantics of christ".
And you whant to tell me that they were all making up crazy theories to suport creationism?
I know that there are many religious scientists, but I doubt that they are all "fantics of christ".
Born to be wild - live to outgrow it (Lao Tzu)
Someday you will die and somehow something's going to steal your carbon
In contrast to the efforts of tiny Israel to make contributions to the world so as to better mankind, one has to ask what have those who have strived to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth done other than to create hate and bloodshed.
That depends what you mean by "fanatics of Christ".Originally Posted by Valentin the II
For instance, Dr. Raymond Damandian is a young earth creationist, so if that is your definition of a "fanatic of Christ", then yes, I suppose I am telling you that.
You didn't read who that last section of my post was directed at, did you?Originally Posted by shenmueguru
My point was that correlation to various historical events does not make something a reliable source.
Creation science was a laughably pathetic attempt to force biblical creationism into the classroom under the guise of science. I would love to debate some of those scientists if they truly think that creationism is a better theory, because I've been debating creationists for almost a year and have never seen a single argument which actually holds any water.Originally Posted by Valentinian
Labelling 'creation science' wrong is not an unfair act, they have been shown to be wrong many many times, under many different guises. Why the hell shouldn't we criticize it?
I'm afraid that you probably don't know much about it; nor the people who believe in it then. That's certianly not the case.Originally Posted by Sam
Perhaps you have not exactly been debating people very knowledgable on it, then.I would love to debate some of those scientists if they truly think that creationism is a better theory, because I've been debating creationists for almost a year and have never seen a single argument which actually holds any water.
I didn't say that.Labelling 'creation science' wrong is not an unfair act, they have been shown to be wrong many many times, under many different guises. Why the hell shouldn't we criticize it?
If you read my post you will see that I was replying to a post in which The White Knight suggests that they shouldn't even be considered scientists.
Well if you seem to know so much about creation science, then can you please give us a decent point on my it is a good theory?Originally Posted by Valentinian
Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.
I certianly don't claim to know a great deal about it from an intellectually scientific point of view -- what I was doing, however, was pointing out a few things which you and Sam had said which were incorrect in regard to the history and philosophy behind creation science, something which I do know a little about.Originally Posted by Shaun
Well i never really said anything about creationism, and i did disagree with The White Knights statement about scientists cannot be creationists or whatever, but you have to admit that for a scientist to just accept a theory, its fair enough if they have done some research, but to acpet without question does seem odd.Originally Posted by Valentinian
Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.
Ah! But what does he do? If he is a geologyst, biologyst, etc.... than he is a scientist.Originally Posted by Valentinian
But if he is one of these wackos who twist the laws of science to fit their precious bible (the so called "creationist scientists") than I can hardly call him a scientist.
Half of the scientists in the world blindly folow theyr obsecuer theories, that doesnt proove anysing.Originally Posted by Shaun
It seems that Im fighting on 2 fronts .
Born to be wild - live to outgrow it (Lao Tzu)
Someday you will die and somehow something's going to steal your carbon
In contrast to the efforts of tiny Israel to make contributions to the world so as to better mankind, one has to ask what have those who have strived to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth done other than to create hate and bloodshed.
If you'ld read mt previous post you would have seen that he most emphatically is a scientist :Originally Posted by Valentin the II
Happy?Dr Raymond Damadian - invented Magnetic Resonance Imaging - received - the United States' National Medal of Technology - the Lemelson-MIT Lifetime Achievement Award for invention and innovation - was elected to the National Inventors Hall of Fame. (very, very few have achieved this)
So, if I disagree with it, that means I don't know anything about it? Either that or it means I'm familiar enough with it to know that it's a crock. After all, if it weren't a crock, it would be in classrooms being taught as we speak, but the scientific community saw it for what it was and stamped it out, and then the legal system saw it for what it was and stamped it out. After being beaten down by the courts and the scientific community, they gave it a quick polish over, a new name (intelligent design), and tried again, only to fail again. So then they gave it a quick polish over yet again, a new name (critical analysis) yet again, and now they are trying yet again.Originally Posted by Valentinian
I don't have to know a damn thing about the people who believe in creation science to know that it is a religious theory. The religiosity of creation science shines through in it's criticisms and ideas (and in the fact that it's mostly just criticisms of evolution and biology, and not much actual alternative substance besides 'goddidit').
I took this quote from the main page of the Institute for Creation Research, the home of creation science; "will Christians be successful in the pulling down of strongholds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (II Corinthians 10:4,5)." No, not religious at all. How wrong I was to assume it had religious roots.
If you honestly think that 'creation science' is actually a scientific theory, then let's go over the fine points of it, shall we? If it's the only thing that will convince you of how fraudulent it is, I'll do it gladly.
They aren't knowledgable on evolution either, but they still trumpet it's failure from the rooftops.Originally Posted by Valentinian
To be honest, I don't understand how a scientist could believe that creation science is superior, it really isn't.Originally Posted by Valentinian
I have heard that some scientists believe in tCreationism but for the purposes of their work accept evolution as fact. Its a rather interesting separation of faith and knowledge.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
How wonderful it would be if our politican's could manage the same willingness.
The difference between scientists and politicians is scientists know a fact when they see it, politicians see all as spin. But this is another matter; I think the separation in the minds of scientists lends credence to teaching evolution in science lessons and creationism in RE, as one is knowledge and the other is faith.Originally Posted by Ahiga
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
It is a scientific theory.Originally Posted by Sam
However, I never said that it has no religious roots. I was responding to your statement that :
Because, indeed, it was not, Creation science is something that a minority of scientists believe is a tenable theory in accordance with the established laws (not laws per sé, but the general scientific method) of science. It's purpose is hardly just to do with introducing it in schools -- that is just a product of their conclusion.Creation science was a laughably pathetic attempt to force biblical creationism into the classroom under the guise of science.
That's a bit of an oversimplification. Many creationists would believe that it was scientifically true -- not just taking it on faith.Originally Posted by tGS
However, yes, I agree. So long as evolution is the accepted best theory by the scientific establishment it should (not necessarly by legal enforcement) be taught in ordinary state schools.
What should be done, IMO, is for them to alter the curriculum slightly to give more emphasis that evolution is not quite as much of a given fact as many textbooks make it out to be.
No, I am afraid it is not a scientific theory, as it is just criticism of another scientific theory, and the unsubstantiated claim that, if the other theory is wrong, Creationism must be right. Again, you seem confused over the word "theory". A scientific theory is not, as in colloquial use, just a guess. It must be backed up by empirical evidence, which has been observed through reproducable, scientific experimentation, and stand up to peer review and criticism. Now, here's the thing, it must be falsifiable.
Creationism is not. Ergo, it is a religious theory, not a scientific one, and so has no place in the science classroom. By all means, teach criticism of Evolution, but the insiduous religion-as-science should not be allowed to mislead pupils over the distinction between science and theology.
Under patronage of: Wilpuri
I was going to post an article from the Institute for Creation Research website here and go through it, but I just saw something which will save me all the effort.Originally Posted by Valentinian
Creation science is not a scientific theory, end of argument.Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science
The supreme court ruled that it was, (Edwards v. Aguillard, 1987):Originally Posted by Valentinian
Fortunately the courts are required to thoroughly investigate both sides, and judge accordingly.Originally Posted by http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0482_0578_ZS.html
You admitted to not knowing much about creaton science, but you seem to think that because a few scientists think it is feasible, it is automatically made into a valid scientific theory. Not so.
But that wouldn't make it scientifically true.Originally Posted by Valentinian