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Thread: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

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    Default What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Manichaeism has often been called the “early competitor to Christianity”. This is understating the fact. The two religions were in intense competition. They were popular in the same regions of the Empire (the East) and appealed to similar groups of people (the urban poor). Manichaeism had a more positive and rosy outlook with a more attractive set of beliefs for the average convert. But it lacked the sort of pseudo-bureaucracy that made Christianity so organized and feared by the Emperors.

    Manichaeism is also closely connected with Zoroastrianism, and thus by association, the Persian state. What if Constantine, or a later Emperor, decided on Manichaeism rather than Christianity. Would this have made it easier for the Roman and Sassanid Empires to secure lasting peace?
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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Well I'll say it could never have happened in the first place. Converting to Christianity was undoubtedly a calculated move for Constantine (even if he did had some faith at any point), and Manichaeism just didn't spread towards the West in a way that would make it politically useful (it would also have had to go through the Christian heartland on its way!). If it had though, Manichaeism would just have come to blows with Zoroastrianism sooner rather than later. Though Mani was influenced by the theological framework of Zoroastrianism, the differences between the two were greater than between, say, Pre-Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity (he himself was born into a Sabian, Abrahamic sect with ties to Judaism). Although Manichaeism flourished in Iran for a time it was always going to come to blows with the older faith, and having your main rival convert to it would only have roused suspicion and intolerance.

    Besides, the Romans and Iranians weren't fighting due to religious differences.

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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    ...then this thread would have been titled "What if Constantine I converted to Christianity instead?" and we'd be daydreaming about peace loving hippie Romans who turn the other cheek to their enemies.
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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pathfinder View Post
    Well I'll say it could never have happened in the first place. Converting to Christianity was undoubtedly a calculated move for Constantine (even if he did had some faith at any point), and Manichaeism just didn't spread towards the West in a way that would make it politically useful (it would also have had to go through the Christian heartland on its way!). If it had though, Manichaeism would just have come to blows with Zoroastrianism sooner rather than later. Though Mani was influenced by the theological framework of Zoroastrianism, the differences between the two were greater than between, say, Pre-Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity (he himself was born into a Sabian, Abrahamic sect with ties to Judaism). Although Manichaeism flourished in Iran for a time it was always going to come to blows with the older faith, and having your main rival convert to it would only have roused suspicion and intolerance.

    Besides, the Romans and Iranians weren't fighting due to religious differences.
    You do make a good point that it is often those religions that are the closest related which fight the most fiercely. As for the impossibility of Constantine converting to Mani... I don't know about that.

    Christianity was extremely rare in the Western Empire, and almost unheard of in Britain, where Constantine spent his formative years. It wasn't present in Moesia/Pannonia either from where Constantine's father hails. The early Church had little presence with the rural population, and the middle Empire north of Thessalonica was almost all rural.

    So we really have no idea exactly where and how the Constantine father and son couple picked up their sympathies for Christianity. And it's almost just as likely for them to have picked up the teachings of Mani.

    If I had to guess, I would say that the Great Persecution was what did for the Constantius. We know he carried it out his his Western provinces until suddenly he didn't. Perhaps he just decided that beheading a bunch of deacons and priests whose only crimes seems to have been giving alms to the poor was a terrible, awful thing, and this intimate contact with the faith made a secret convert/sympathizer of him and his son.
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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Manicheism was a "terrorist" religion in Rome, or seen as one, since it was percieved as a deviation of Zoroastrism, but still inherently Persian. During all that time, Persia and Rome were like the US and the USSR. Manicheans were seen as the fifth column, spies and traitors working secretly for Persia.

    True that Christians were also persecuted, but mostly for religious and later on, political reasons. The reasons behind the persecution of Manicheism were far more "important", a matter of State.

    If I see Constantine becoming something else than Christian, it's backing the other real competitors of Christianity, the cults of Mithra and Sol Invictus.

    Anyway, I like to think sometimes how would our world be if it was Constantine, and not Maxentius, who drowned int he battle of the Milvine Bridge, ad portas of Rome. There, Constantine (already backed by Christians, but probably still not a Christian himself, or so says the latest research based on his coinage) faced the pagan Maxentius. Maxentius was possibily betrayed by Christians inside the city of Rome, or maybe just victim of a bad stroke of luck. He fell down and drowned. Pity.

    Usually, many people mark the diverging point of a "Christian Europe" in the Battle of the Frigidus between the Christian Theodosius and the pagan Arbogast (along with his puppet Emperor, Eugenius, who was not Pagan but was sympathetic of Arbogast-sponsored Pagan revitalization). But I think that by the reign of Theodosius... it was too late. It's with Constantine that the balance shifted. It's a the Milvine Bridge that the whole course of history was set, on the few meters of rock and brick over the Tiber. Quite the vertigo.
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    Ecthelion's Avatar Great Ramen Connoisseur
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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexios Komnenos View Post
    Manicheism was a "terrorist" religion in Rome, or seen as one, since it was percieved as a deviation of Zoroastrism, but still inherently Persian. During all that time, Persia and Rome were like the US and the USSR. Manicheans were seen as the fifth column, spies and traitors working secretly for Persia.

    True that Christians were also persecuted, but mostly for religious and later on, political reasons. The reasons behind the persecution of Manicheism were far more "important", a matter of State.

    If I see Constantine becoming something else than Christian, it's backing the other real competitors of Christianity, the cults of Mithra and Sol Invictus.

    Anyway, I like to think sometimes how would our world be if it was Constantine, and not Maxentius, who drowned int he battle of the Milvine Bridge, ad portas of Rome. There, Constantine (already backed by Christians, but probably still not a Christian himself, or so says the latest research based on his coinage) faced the pagan Maxentius. Maxentius was possibily betrayed by Christians inside the city of Rome, or maybe just victim of a bad stroke of luck. He fell down and drowned. Pity.

    Usually, many people mark the diverging point of a "Christian Europe" in the Battle of the Frigidus between the Christian Theodosius and the pagan Arbogast (along with his puppet Emperor, Eugenius, who was not Pagan but was sympathetic of Arbogast-sponsored Pagan revitalization). But I think that by the reign of Theodosius... it was too late. It's with Constantine that the balance shifted. It's a the Milvine Bridge that the whole course of history was set, on the few meters of rock and brick over the Tiber. Quite the vertigo.
    Interesting (no sarcasm), but do you have any sources for the treatment of M in the late Empire? From what I understand, both Zoroastrianism and M were prevalent in the Eastern provinces.

    And unlike Rome, the Sassanids had a far more theocratic view on state religions. Z was the only officially accepted faith within the boundaries of the empire proper (not including the satraps), a state of religious intolerance that would not be seen in the Roman wold until the days of Theodosius.
    In other words, if the Romans did indeed persecute the Persian faiths, that would give the perfect casus bellum to the Sassanids.

    Let's also not forget that the cult of Mithras has more than a passing association with Persian mysticism, so if this was openly embraced within the Empire, I don't see any reason to single out the followers of Mani.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Sorry, but no. The house of Sasan wasn't (always) intolerant against Manichaeism. If that was the case, the Archegos wouldn't be located in Baghdad for so many years. Also, Shapur I met Mani himself and tolerated him.


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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    I don't know wether he would really have converted to Manichaeism, but if so, than maybe the religion would have lasted much longer than it did in reality. The success of the Christian faith had much to do with the suppression of other religious and philosophical thoughts, without the backing of the authoritarian Roman state it's spread would have been much more restricted. Wether Manichaeism would have had a comparable success as Christianity? Difficult to say, it was a syncretistic and dualistic rather mythical religion which adapted to other traditions and would perhaps not have inspired the emperors to make it the only religion.
    Last edited by geala; March 11, 2015 at 04:39 AM.

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    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    I don't know wether he would really have converted to Manichaeism, but if so, than maybe the religion would have lasted much longer than it did in reality. The success of the Christian faith had much to do with the suppression of other religious and philosophical thoughts, without the backing of the authoritarian Roman state it's spread would have been much more restricted. Wether Manichaeism would have had a comparable success as Christianity? Difficult to say, it was a syncretistic and dualistic rather mythical religion which adapted to other traditions and would perhaps not have inspired the emperors to make it the only religion.
    Indeed, the triumph of Christianity was mostly due to Imperial sponsorship. The actual Christian doctrine and theology didn't pass the logic/sanity checks which was why it was staunchly rejected by the Greek learned class. Later attempts in the East to make sense of the whole "God's son is also God, and God impregnated Mary to give birth to his son, who was also him etc etc" circular illogic resulted in one form of heresy after another, starting with Arianism (which is still my favorite flavor of Christianity, cause it actually makes sense).
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  10. #10

    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Sorry, but no. The house of Sasan wasn't (always) intolerant against Manichaeism. If that was the case, the Archegos wouldn't be located in Baghdad for so many years. Also, Shapur I met Mani himself and tolerated him.
    Baghdad? are you sure? the city was build by Al-Mansor, of the Abbasid Caliphate a few centuries after the fall of the Sasanids, do you mean Ctesiphon which was very close to the south of Baghdad?

  11. #11

    Default Re: What if Constantine I converted to Manichaeism instead?

    I made a video on how to convert to Manichaeism so you can remake history
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1RPk2KKjyA

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