- INVASIO BARBARORVM III -

[gregnaar]

This too, so many mods in developement, i guess after finishing my current campaigns in Attila, i will give it a rest, and waiit like 6 months untill bigger mods become playable! Thank you for doing it!

[Majorien]

My main concern about this project is about the real opportunities of ATW in modding... Will be possible to create something even close as IB SAI ??

[Gäiten]

Be assured, IBIII will be a grand undertaking, it will not be finished this or next year.

A huge To-Do is the campaign map, before there is a tool (or other means) to mod it, IBIII will not be based on the vanilla map.

[JVR]

THANX FOR THE SIG!

[JVR]

Be assured, IBIII will be a grand undertaking, it will not be finished this or next year.

A huge To-Do is the campaign map, before there is a tool (or other means) to mod it, IBIII will not be based on the vanilla map.

Unfortunately i do not believe there are any plans for CA to release mapping tools.... im not sure but i think they get pissed when private dev's make games better than their's, on the other hand, this engine is old so with the development of a new one they may feel our pain a release a map making tool, or at least unlock the files pertaining to city placement and what not so that some brilliant modding minds could create their own map building program. This of course is all speculation, so that being said we are just going to have to be patient.

[RexJayden]

Very excited for this mod. Best of luck to the team!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

BTW if you guys wanna put that signature with the quote by Marcian into Latin it would be "Ferrum attilae sed non aurum habeo."

[Darios]

I do not play mods for Attila, but this may very well change my mind.

Glory to you!

[FrozenmenSS]

Will the Bulgarians will be in the Game ? IF yes it will be Awesome to play as them.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Bulgarians weren't around yet in the Vanilla Attila timeframe (IIRC the best theories say they were insignificant Iranic clans in Bactria until their ethnogenesis in the late 6th century) and a timeframe for the mod has not been decided upon yet.

[FrozenmenSS]

The Bulgarians weren't around yet in the Vanilla Attila timeframe (IIRC the best theories say they were insignificant Iranic clans in Bactria until their ethnogenesis in the late 6th century) and a timeframe for the mod has not been decided upon yet.

The Bulgarians

The origin of the Bulgarians from before the 460s AD is a problem that still provokes discussions among the Historians and Scientists even to the present day. The Bulgarians were mentioned for the First time and entered the European History by the name Bulgarians in the Chronography of 354, writen by an anonymous Latin Chronographer, created for a wealthy Roman Christian named Valentinus.
The Supposed proto-Bulgarian ethnicity was formed somewhere in Central Asia (East Kazakhstan) between the Caspian Sea and the mountain Imeon (Pamirs, Tian Shan and Hindu Kush). Other possible areas proposed by the Modern Historians are the mountain Altai or Western Siberia, the Tarim basin, western Mongolia, southern Siberia and upper reaches of the river Irtysh. There were multiple migrations from Central Asia into the steppes just north of the Caucasus mountain probably as early from the 3rd,4th,5th, till the late 6th century AD by the Bugarian Kutigurs,Utigurs,Onogurs and other minor tribes. In the 370s with the arival of the Huns in Eastern Europe, the Bulgarians were one of the first who joined the Hunnic Confederation with or without their own will is not known yet, but by the looking into the past - the Bulgarians then did the right choise and survived from the Hunnic wrath by being one of their main Allies till the Death of Attila in 453.



The Bulgarian tribes seem to have been numerous enough, for large congregations of them started drifting towards Europe between the 2nd and the 6th centuries AD. The surges of migration worth noting are three. The Bulgarians were to suffer serious losses during the so-called barbaric raids against the Roman possessions on the Old Continent and in the inter-tribal feuds. Nevertheless,their demographic resources were sufficient to last them out in founding two powerful states, the one near the Volga and the other near the Danube, as well as to inhabit whole areas in other states, too.


As early as the 2nd century AD some Bulgarian tribes came down to the European continent, settling in the plains between the Caspian and the Black seas. In 354 AD they were noticed there for the first time by an European chronicler. In the so-called Anonymous Roman Chronograph, their border in the south was marked along the Caucasian ridge.


The snow-covered crags of the Caucasus were no deterrent for them. According to the Armenian historian Moses of khorene, between 351 and 389 AD Bulgarian tribes headed by their chieftain Vund, crossed the Caucasus and migrated to Armenia. Toponymic data testify to the fact that they had remained there for ever and that, centuries later, they had been assimilated by the Armenians.

Swept by the Hunnish wave heading towards Europe at the beginning of the 4th century AD, other numerous Bulgarian tribes broke loose from their settlements in eastern Khazahstan to migrate to the fertile lands along the lower valleys of the Donets and the Don rivers and the Azov littoral assimilating, in their turn, what was left of the ancient tribe of the Sarmatians. Some of those tribes remained for centuries in their new settlements, whereas others moved on, together with the Huns, towards Central Europe and eventually made their homes in Pannonia and in the plains around the Carpathians.


The Hunnish-Bulgarian association existed throughout the period between 377-453 AD - the time of the Hunnish hegemony in Central Europe. It is true that their name was rarely mentioned by the European authors of those times. The invaders, spreading like a dark cloud over Europe are identified with the collective notion 'Huns', but serious modern researchers are probably right in saying that Attila's combat power came chiefly from the mounted troops of the Bulgarians. It is not fortuitous that when tracing back khan Kubrat's dynasty of statesmen, the ancient Bulgarians always put at the top of his genealogy Avitokhol and Erink, obviously identifying them with the famous Hun leader Attila and his son Ernakh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal...ulgarian_khans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avitohol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernak


Indeed, some West-European authors mention the Bulgarians even during that epoch. These were mainly accounts of battles describing them or their participation. We could only guess as to why did the Pannonian and the Carpathian Bulgarians not come to terms with the Longobards but the frequent wars between them are a fact. It is thanks to them that we know of the battle in which the Bulgarians had cruelly defeated the Longobards, slayed their king Agelmundi and took his daughter captive. Then Lamissio, the new king of the Longobards, hit back and defeated the Bulgarians.
The utter defeat of the Huns in the fields of Chalonssur-Marne led to the dissolution of the Hun-Bulgarian alliance and to new, though individual, activities of the Bulgarians on the international arena.










In the 370s also the Bulgarians alone crossed the Kerch strait and raided the Crimean Goths also known as the Greathungi in the vannila TW:Attila. After that the part of the Bulgarians that Followed the Hunic Confederation since the 370s westwards, went back to the eastern steppes near the northern Caucasus to their Relatives. In the early 5th century the Bulgarians lived united as 1 united tribe. But In the second half of the 5th century they split in 2 - the Kutigurs lived west of the Don River and the Utigurs - east of th Don River .After the 460s came the Onogurs from the east that were a third big bulgarian Tribe.



In the 479,484 and 488 the Roman Emperor Zeno payed the Bulgarian Kutiguric tribe to attack Theoderic the Alan and Theoderic, son of Triarri, who were leading Ostrogoths,after their Death even Theoderic the Great.For general of the Bulgarian-Eastern Roman army the emperor choosed his best commander, Sabinian the Great - the mayor of Eddessa and the Regional administrator the provinces of Macedonia and Illyria. In 488, on the Lower Pannonia, which at that time as said was populated mainly by Gepids and Goths in the Great battle at the River Ulka, as described by Paul the Deacon, Theodoric the Great personally managed to knock down and wounded on the battlefield the leader of the Bulgarians Buzan (Busan). Later he would celebrate this victory in Ravenna "over the terrible worldwide Bulgarians who do not know what was a defeat before that."


For this purpose, the Empire staged a war against the Bulgarians ("Greece through encroachment of its ally Mundo events disagreement with the Bulgarian ordination," said Enodiy). It earned its side Gepids Mundo, from the clan of Attila and cousin of Prince Trazerik managing Srem (Sirmium), who began terrorizing the Bulgarians with looting - "... using everywhere collected thieves, robbers and murderers ... he lived by plundering the surroundings King of its thieves. "(Jordanes). Using the engagement of the Bulgarians, Theodoric the Great sent its first two noblemen Count Petzza (Pizzii) and Hardwicke "with neposveshtavana then in combat youth" to seize the capital of Lower Pannonia Sirmium (Srem). Petzata once ostracized Trazerik, he managed to seize the city without a fight and "ruled the area as its own welfare, not rob it as conquered." "Then set off against Sabinian, captain of Ilyria who fighting with Mundo in the city of . Margoplan ... but that was in a desperate situation and thought to surrender ... and save him from the hands of Sabinian ... and smashed the Illyrian army ... then he (Mundo) gratitude obey the King Theodoric "(Jordanes).

This battle of the river Morava in 505, between led by Flavius ​​Sabinian, was joined by his father - Sabinian the Great as manager of the Macedonia and Illyricum armies of Bulgarians and Goths Petzata and Mundo cited as the most bloodiest battle at that time. The Titsianskiyat Enodiy bishop wrote in his panagirika to Theodoric the Great: "Faced two people who have never been afraid of death. Wondered to one another that are equal to themselves and that mankind Goth dares to resist a Bulgarian and a Bulgarian to a Goth. Finally the Goths defeated "those" before this defeat thinking that their world is open everywhere. " Then the two parts of the Roman Empire united again (temporarily) the old borders. "Italy again occupied Sirmium after Theodoric defeated the Bulgarians," wrote in 504, the Kasiodor Minister of Theodoric the Great, respectively. "Terrible worldwide Bulgarians", as he writes in his letter to the Roman Senate in 526, King Atanarih. For the same war and relate information in the Gothic chronicles, where the first mention of the name of Bulgarians in European source. This speaks of the victory of King Theodoric against Bulgarian troops in Srem.

The Direct link between the capital of the Roman Empire of Constantinople and the western provinces of with Rome center is interrupted. Theophanes the Confessor and Marcellinus Comes writes: "In this year (494) and since-called Bulgarians who lived in Illyria and Thrace, attacked and pulled away before noticing them man" and "Aris captain of Illyrian troops, armed with fifty thousand troops and 250 cars loaded with the necessary battle gear, went against the Bulgarians who plundered Thrace. The fight was tied at p. Tsurta (Chorlu) where they destroyed more than four thousand of our (Romans), or fled as either fell from the shore into the river. " So far, the Empire was in use from one to the other Theodoric against the Bulgarians. Now, when Theodoric the Great with accommodation in Italy became stronger, the Empire decided to serve with his strength against his rebellious Bulgarians called "Bulgarians own" because they considered people of the Roman Empire.

After 493 the Kutiguric Bulgarians started raiding the Eastern Roman Empire across the Balkans - Ilyria, Thessaly,Thrace and Moesia each year for the next 50 years till the 540s. The magister militiae Julian in 493 was killed in Thrace.In 499 the Bulgarians In 499 they defeated Aris the commander of the troops in Illyria, and in 502 ravaged unopposed Thrace and Illyria.512 years - Bulgaria attacks against Constantinople area, the Emperor Anastasius orders to built the long wall.


When Roman General Vitalian (general) Rebeled against the Emperor Anastasius in 514, he had a Kutiguric Contingent of Cavalry. mperor Anastasius builded the In 499 they defeated Aris and commanding the troops in Illyria, and in 502 ravaged unopposed Thrace and Illyria.
512 years - Bulgaria attacks against Constantinople, the Emperor Anastasius built the long Anastasian wall, because of the Bulgarian Raids raids in the Balkans.In 1 of the military campaigns of the Bulgarians 40 heavily defended cities fell into the Barbarian hands.
517 - The Kutigurs marched southwest into Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly.
In 528 the Khan Grod of the Kutigurian Bulgarians adopted the Cristianity and was Baptised in Constantinople and tried to spread the Cristian Faight among his Kin but after 2 years was killed and overruled - writes the Theophanes the Confessor

In 535 the Kurtigurian Bulgarians were repulsed at the Yantra River.
In 538 they attacked Scythia Minor and Moesia and won several victories. Later defeated in Thrace, but shortly thereafter defeated the returning Byzantine army.
In 540 again ravaged the Balkans to the Adriatic Sea, reaching Constantinople.

In 551 the Kutigurs concluded an alliance with the Gepids against the Lombards and sent considerable army in Pannonia. Since the Gepids havent started the war with the Lombards, this army was sent in the Balkan provinces of the Empire. Byzantines agreed with the Utiguric Bulgarian khan Sandilh with an army of Utigurs and Tetraksiti to attack the undefended territory of the Kutigurs. The campaign was successful and thousands of Byzantines held in captivity were released and returned to the Empire. Part of the defeated Kutigurs also been adopted by the emperor and were alowed to settle in Thrace.


In 558 Khan Zavergan of the Kutiguric Bulgarians take new campaign in the Balkans. He crossed the frozen Danube River and divides his army into three parts sent to Thessaly, Gallipoli and Constantinople. After failing to pass the Dardanelles to totally besiege the capital, he returned home against an ransom. Meanwhile, bribed by Emperor Justinian I, Khan Sandilh again attacked the lands of the kutigurs. The Wars between the Kutriguric and the Utiguric Bulgarians continued in the coming years.

Also Around the 558 the submition of the Western Bulgarian tribes by the Avars and the Eastern by the Göktürks' khaganate came true.There was even a Avar khan called Bayan - a comon bulgarian name in that time period.. This lasted till the 630s

Since the late 16th century have been offered various hypotheses, some of which attract with their whimsicality and stubbornness in defending them. Most authorities reject the concepts of aboriginal (or Thracian), Slavic, Tatar and Finno-Ugric origin of the Bulgarians. More popular, but also challenged are the Hunic and are Oguric options of the Turanian hypothesis. Some scientific papers and amateur research in the late 20th century revived another hypothesis according to which the Bulgars were mixed Hunic-Iranian population.

The various theories about the origin of the Bulgarians can generally be assigned to two directions - first to the Altaic ethnogenesis and, secondly the Arian/Baktrian ethnogenesis. Third thesis advocates their mixed formation as a nation. Each of the first two theories does not exclude participation as influences, assimilation, etc. population determined to be dominant than the other direction. Actually, the difference between them is not only whether the dispute are Arians or Proto-Turkic-Mongols,but what is the primary source. In this sense, the most accurate to speak of is the mixed origin theory - who first formulated by some serious scientists as a distinct third theory, that dont denies or contradicts the other two mutually challenging theories. It focuses not on how started the process and the result of it - The ancient proto-Bulgarians.
The term Bulgars is a term coined in the 19th century of historical science (just like the Term Byzantine empire) to distinguish the people founded and ruled the First Bulgarian Empire – 681AD before its merger with the Slavs and the the Thracians,the remains of the ancient and barbaric population and the formation of the Modern Bulgarian nation. Today its often replaced by the term Proto–bulgarians, old Bulgarians and even just Bulgarians.


In the early 5th century the bulgarians lived united as 1 united tribe. In the second half of the 5th century. they split in 2. - the Kutigurs and the Utigurs.After the 460s came the. Onogurs from the east that were a third big bulgarian Tribe. One of the final migrations from the East were from the mountain. Imeon in Baktria in 530s

BTW tiping from my phone . Will eddit the coment with links about military tactics,military organisation of the army, regions that they controled and all the existing. historical sources. How I know this? Im fom Bulgaria and studied all this from the 1st grade in scholl till the university when studiing Law.

http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%...B8%D1%82%D0%B5
Use Google Translate.


http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%...B2%D0%B5%D0%BA
Use Goggle translate.

http://groznijat.tripod.com/p_bulgar/p_bulg1a.htm

[Sagat]

Great work team, I look forward to playing this mod in the future.

Will the Bulgarians will be in the Game ? IF yes it will be Awesome to play as them.

Great work team, I look forward to playing this mod in the future.

^ Frozenmenn oh you're from Bulgaria and you want a full blown Bulgarian faction because you're from Bulgaria....

As Magister said, and history says there was no Bulgaria back then, it was Thracians and other numerous tribes in those regions and those were your ancestors.... The word Bulgaria probably didn't even exist until year 700 because that's when the first Bulgarian empire was formed..
Do you understand that these are historical facts? as in supported by what all historians have gathered from all the knowledge they have on that subject...
And if some random Roman aristocrat chronicle is good enough for you then cool, because we all know random Roman rich dudes were accurate historical sources....
But the guys making this mod they are chasing historical accuracy and not cultural biases

[Garensterz]

Wow! Very happy to see the IB team going for Attila!

[LEGIO_XXX ULPIA]

Great work team, I look forward to playing this mod in the future.

^ Frozenmenn oh you're from Bulgaria and you want a full blown Bulgarian faction because you're from Bulgaria....

As Magister said, and history says there was no Bulgaria back then, it was Thracians and other numerous tribes in those regions and those were your ancestors.... The word Bulgaria probably didn't even exist until year 700 because that's when the first Bulgarian empire was formed..
Do you understand that these are historical facts? as in supported by what all historians have gathered from all the knowledge they have on that subject...
And if some random Roman aristocrat chronicle is good enough for you then cool, because we all know random Roman rich dudes were accurate historical sources....
But the guys making this mod they are chasing historical accuracy and not cultural biases

+rep.

Can't agree more! Bulgars bulgars bulgars...in each post! Stop please!!!!

[AnthoniusII]

I am afraid this bulgarian is right...
The steppe Bulgars (arround Don river) offered mercenary services for ERE emperor in a spesific battle against Ostrogoths.
CAUTION: Not Bulgarians as we know them TODAY but the steppe settled forfathers of them.!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Most people that do know a thing or two about Steppe history make this mistake. The Oghur peoples are often called "Oghur Bulgars" but they were different from the Bulgars who would migrate into Thracia under Khan Asparuch, although I'm sure through assimilation some Huns and Oghur peoples joined in that migration in the late 7th century.

FrozenmenSS, the people you are talking about are the Oghurs, known previously as the Dingling; they were absorbed by the Xiongnu, and they became the Huns. I can assure you the Huns will be featured in the mod.

But the Huns are not Bulgars; technically the Khazars were in a large part composed of Huns.

[FrozenmenSS]

I just Eddited my Main post.......
I dont want to Dereal this Thread about this Future Mod For TW:Attila.I
just want to help make it Better - I just wish everybody that are in the "Mod Workshop"/the Team to take my advise and Feadback and take it into Account when making the Mod.

The Guys From the TW:Karling (that starts in 714ad) mod already done it
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...=1#post1341503

I Helped also in the Medieval Kingdoms 1212ad with some feadbacks also......

Most people that do know a thing or two about Steppe history make this mistake. The Oghur peoples are often called "Oghur Bulgars" but they were different from the Bulgars who would migrate into Thracia under Khan Asparuch, although I'm sure through assimilation some Huns and Oghur peoples joined in that migration in the late 7th century.

FrozenmenSS, the people you are talking about are the Oghurs, known previously as the Dingling; they were absorbed by the Xiongnu, and they became the Huns. I can assure you the Huns will be featured in the mod.

But the Huns are not Bulgars; technically the Khazars were in a large part composed of Huns.

The Ogurs were a minoraty in the Bulgarian tribes in the late 6th and early 7th centuries. They never were that inportant in trhat Era.just like the Sabirs that migrated North.

I am afraid this bulgarian is right...
The steppe Bulgars (arround Don river) offered mercenary services for ERE emperor in a spesific battle against Ostrogoths.
CAUTION: Not Bulgarians as we know them TODAY but the steppe settled forfathers of them.!

thanks mate

Great work team, I look forward to playing this mod in the future.

^ Frozenmenn oh you're from Bulgaria and you want a full blown Bulgarian faction because you're from Bulgaria....

As Magister said, and history says there was no Bulgaria back then, it was Thracians and other numerous tribes in those regions and those were your ancestors.... The word Bulgaria probably didn't even exist until year 700 because that's when the first Bulgarian empire was formed..
Do you understand that these are historical facts? as in supported by what all historians have gathered from all the knowledge they have on that subject...
And if some random Roman aristocrat chronicle is good enough for you then cool, because we all know random Roman rich dudes were accurate historical sources....
But the guys making this mod they are chasing historical accuracy and not cultural biases

Sagat - yes Im From Bulgaria and dont Worry - Im not a Zealotic Nazi/Nationonalic Patriot to that extend.

+rep.

Can't agree more! Bulgars bulgars bulgars...in each post! Stop please!!!!

you only says that every time for the last 3 months and didnt gave 1 single Link with information with Evidences,historical records and so on. So before talking says it with some Weight in your comments... Nothing personal but in the Siencetific Academia World this is = to just noise. Example: Today it will be rainy. - without saying why it will just random personal oppinion...


All the written sourses about them used the Name Bulgarians.just Read the prime sources. And its a Mistake done By Creative Assembly when making Attila.

Do you know Guys that Everybody in Modern Bulgaria that Plays the Total War Games Laught their asses off What CA was Reading, thinking,reading and Smoking when making Attila TW - not to add one of the main and earliest Allies to the Huns. most of them Says - Why Buy this game when CA arent honouring Our History. CA did it also in Medieval 2(Bulgarian rebels with 2 rebel units and that was it.) and in Rome 1: Barbarian Invasion.

Its some kinda close to the problem: Portugal - Unplayable in Empire:TW for the portuguee players,but bigger...

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Considering a variety of steppe factions are in Attila, I think it will be possible that the various Hunnic groups will all be represented. The Attilanic Huns would be the primary group (I.e. the "Huns" faction, Attila's Empire), the Sabir Huns are already in the game, and the Oghurs and Saragurs could replace the factions CA added that were just filler in that region.

[Sagat]

Frozen You're clogging up the thread and need to stop posting in here unless you want to discuss the mod with the rest of us.

Also I see you completely ignored what I said about the subject, so I'll say it one last time maybe you understand better. What we are saying is not personal opinion, it's historical fact, Bulgars or Bulgarian people or Bulgarian empire did not exist then, yes there were people living in those areas obviously, but they were not called Bulgars, they were mostly Thracians and other more minor tribes. what don't you understand about this ??

Even around the time when Bulgars emerged with their own empire in 700, they still weren't big enough to have their own faction at that time. It took them until around 900 to form an actual kingdom with it's own borders territories and customs, universally known as the Bulgars.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Thracians weren't around in the time of Attila. The only people around were the Romans and whatever groups of Laeti or Foederati they settled to assimilate.

And he is right about the SS thing. Silistra on the Danube (Roman Durostorum, where Aetius was born) is labelled that way.