Explaining the "Great Power" penalty and fixing it

[masterofseppuku]

The "Great Power" diplomacy debuff is one of the more frustrating additions in Attila. It serves a similar purpose to the diplomatic penalties for imperium in Rome 2, but in Attila it create a few awkward situations due to its interaction with other systems. In particular, I am referring to the increased rate of early imperium growth and the hates/admires empires traits for faction leaders on the diplomacy screen.
In Attila, the "Great Power" debuff is scales directly with imperium and the early stages of imperium grow faster than in Rome 2. Some people have suggested that it increases based on multiple factors now including research completed rater than simply regions controlled. I think this is a good thing overall as it allows hordes to rise without holding territory. In practice, small factions are reaching up to levels 4 and 5 far too quickly and are getting buried with penalties. The problem is compounded by the "hates rival empires" trait which doubles this effect.

Poking though the game database we have the following penalties for imperium:

Level 2: -5 penalty
Level 3: -10 penalty
Level 4: -30 penalty
Level 5: -40 penalty
Level 6: -60 penalty
Level 7: -80 penalty

(From table effect_bundles_toeffects_junctions rows 95-99)

The rival empires traits are dealt out to the various faction leaders and modify these values multiplicatively:

anti_empire: *2
anti_empire_player_penalised: *2.5 (with *2 for non-player factions)
default: *1 (this value is when the faction leader has no related trait)
empire_supporter: *-0.75
empire_supporter_player_penalised: *-0.5 (with *-0.75 for non-player factions)
indifferent: *0.1
indifferent_player_penalised: *0.25 (with *0.1 for non-player factions)

(From table cai_personality_empire_rivalry_components_tables)

In my opinion, the penalty scales to steeply especially since it does not compare the relative strength between factions. I leave it to CA to create a more elegant solution, but in the meantime I suggest that we mod the tables ourselves. For my game, I am trying the following values:

Level 2: -1
Level 3: -5
Level 4: -10
Level 5: -20
Level 6: -40
Level 7: -80

anti_empire: *1
anti_empire_player_penalised: *1
default: *.5
empire_supporter: *-0. 5
empire_supporter_player_penalised: *-0.5
indifferent: *0.1
indifferent_player_penalised: *0.1

I have attached my mod file if anyone wants to play with it. Just unzip, place in your data folder, and activate with the mod manager.

[Osbot]

I've been looking for this for awhile. Gave up when I found a flat modifier for imperium diplo bonus' and penalties in the cai_variables table. Feel like the penalty should ramp up progressively. I'm actually going to run it with slightly steeper penalties at level 6 and 7.

Good find, thanks!

[Greenpatriot]

Love it! I have my mod that uses a flat modifier at around 40 percent decrease at the moment, but this is what I wanted originally. Would I have permission to add this an overhaul compilation that I have in the works?

[Bouncepass]

Definitely check it out thanks.

[irisheagle]

How does this affect the Romans with their high starting Imperium (and thus normally being hated by everyone on their borders)? The one problem I've noticed messing too much with that sorta thing is that a diplomatically strong Rome even in the AI's hands can sorta stalemate the entire map.

Of course what comes to mind is me wondering if it's possible to mod in a specific debuff for relations between the civilized (Rome and Sassanids) and uncivilized factions?

[JoeSaunders]

This is good. I will play with it.

[masterofseppuku]

Greenpatriot: I am just a dude who found a table and made my tweaks. Go to the tables I called out and make your tweaks. No permission needed.

[Zephyx]

Thanks this is great!

[masterofseppuku]

At this point, I don't know the best set of values to use. Having lower values for the barbarians seems to be the way to go, but at least in my sassanid campaign, where you are secure and big enough to begin with, the vanilla values are not nearly as painful. I would love to get any feedback from others on their experience using the mod I posted or their own.

Ideally I'd like to see CA slow down the imperium gain and/or make the greater power values scale to the relative imperium between two factions.

[NefariousKoel]

I will give this a try sometime soon. Wonder if it needs to be updated after the upcoming patch.

I was rather shocked with the official reply that we should stop researching to avoid the ever-increasing diplo penalties. Had hoped that CA would make some adjustments here, and maybe they eventually will with enough concern being voiced, but in the meantime it's up to modders. So thank you.

[Osbot]

How does this affect the Romans with their high starting Imperium (and thus normally being hated by everyone on their borders)? The one problem I've noticed messing too much with that sorta thing is that a diplomatically strong Rome even in the AI's hands can sorta stalemate the entire map.

Of course what comes to mind is me wondering if it's possible to mod in a specific debuff for relations between the civilized (Rome and Sassanids) and uncivilized factions?

It's hard to say. What you can always do, is turn it off at the start of the campaign, to get the ball rolling on the WRE then turn it on once the WRE is sufficiently weakened. This might actually help with the issue of the WRE actually vaporizing in 30 turns.

The other idea I am toying with, is turning the base fields way down. Then ramping the hates empire modifier way way up, like 5x or something. Relations will normalize, factions will be less likely to just slowly hate each other for no real reason. However, if a faction HATES rival empires, then they will really hate you ;p

You can also modify the values for culture and presumably religion. The culture table is cai_personality_cultural_relations_override the religious table is cai_personality_religious_components

You will see 2 numbers. They won't be defined but you can figure it out. Basically the AI value is always either doubled for positives and halved for negatives. Not always the exact modifier but the AI gets smaller penalties and bigger bonuses ;p

I feel like adjusting all of these modifiers would be the best way to approach balancing imperium. Imperium by itself should be minor. The attitudes of other factions should be the big modifier. If the rival faction hates empires, is religiously and culturally intolerant, then they should really, really hate you.

[Augustusng]

It's hard to say. What you can always do, is turn it off at the start of the campaign, to get the ball rolling on the WRE then turn it on once the WRE is sufficiently weakened. This might actually help with the issue of the WRE actually vaporizing in 30 turns.

The other idea I am toying with, is turning the base fields way down. Then ramping the hates empire modifier way way up, like 5x or something. Relations will normalize, factions will be less likely to just slowly hate each other for no real reason. However, if a faction HATES rival empires, then they will really hate you ;p

You can also modify the values for culture and presumably religion. The culture table is cai_personality_cultural_relations_override the religious table is cai_personality_religious_components

You will see 2 numbers. They won't be defined but you can figure it out. Basically the AI value is always either doubled for positives and halved for negatives. Not always the exact modifier but the AI gets smaller penalties and bigger bonuses ;p

I feel like adjusting all of these modifiers would be the best way to approach balancing imperium. Imperium by itself should be minor. The attitudes of other factions should be the big modifier. If the rival faction hates empires, is religiously and culturally intolerant, then they should really, really hate you.

Yes, I like this idea. It lessens that artificial "Great Power" penalty, but still makes the AI personalities meaningful.

[Iron_Duke]

Yes, I like this idea. It lessens that artificial "Great Power" penalty, but still makes the AI personalities meaningful.

I concur. Would somebody care to post a file with these changes?

[PumpkinBread]

I concur. Would somebody care to post a file with these changes?

I, too, concur.

(reminds me of ER scene in 'Catch me if you can.)

[Augustusng]

I would do it, but I'm busy working on another mod at the moment. Maybe I'll do this in a few days if no one else does first.

EDIT: Okay, fine. This doesn't seem like it will take too long. I'm doing it now. In the interests of not hijacking this thread, I'll make a new thread when I have something to show.

[surg3on]

For people wanting its closer to default values for the personality modifiers (so haters still hate). While the levels are 10 lower at the top teir for this one note the default and anti empire modifiers are a lot more (than the original mod).

Level 2: -1
Level 3: -5
Level 4: -10
Level 5: -20
Level 6: -30
Level 7: -70

anti_empire: *1.75
anti_empire_player_penalised: *1.75
default: *1
empire_supporter: *-0. 5
empire_supporter_player_penalised: *-0.5
indifferent: *0.1
indifferent_player_penalised: *0.1

[Serbian91]

Does this work with the newest patch?

[surg3on]

Don't see why it wouldn't. Its effects under 20 lines in the database. I haven't been able to test it thoroughly yet but it does seem to work.

[BanditKS]

Its great to see someone else had the same reaction I did to this

Being I would like to learn, where can i go to get a walk-through on how to make my own mod that can be turned on and off as needed, as well as where do i find this file so i may mod the values myself?

Thanks!
-Banditks

[BanditKS]

alright after poking around myself a bit i found what i was looking for and am not doing my first bit of modding in Attila.