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Thread: ERE - Saving vs Spending

  1. #1

    Default ERE - Saving vs Spending

    DISCLAIMER: As I'm writing this post I've not yet tested this out but will do so after.

    As the title states I want to find out when and/or if you should save money as ERE due to the faction trait "Economic Powerhouse" (+5% interest on treasury at end of turn etc.).

    Because ERE is the target to a lot of migrating forces which will sack/raid/raze your provinces, your starting income is at best unsustainable. Due to these variables I think it would like to see what you guys think about saving money from the start which might sustain you better than your income once you get the ball rolling.

    The only thing I did spend money on was governors in my 4 highest income regions with the "Byzantine Urbanisation" (-10% Construction cost, + 5% Tax rate) edict. I don't know yet if this will pay off, but I am trying it out for now.

    I've now saved 5850 from my starting treasury, this will give me a interest of 292-293. This will of course grow more and more every turn I don't spend any money.

    I've already tried spending nothing on military as ERE and not lose a single battle for the first 2 turns so I know I can handle the start that far.

    Some quick stats (based on the assumption you have a positive income, regardless of how small):
    5000 = 250
    10000 = 500
    20000 = 1000 (Benchmark, you can build some t1 buildings with interest alone)
    24000 = 1200 (Benchmark, you can build some t2 buildings with interest alone)

    When you reach these benchmarks you will be able to improve your economy, handle all your problems and snowball out of control (I hope).

    Foreseeable problems include:

    - Multiple hordes in different locations (Black sea invasion included)
    - That Sassy Empire to the East
    - Multiple hordes in different locations (2 turns in a row)
    - Losing battles because you're not as good as you thought
    - Multiple hordes in different locations (3 turns in a row)
    - Poor sanitation leading to sickness
    - Multiple hordes in different locations (Because CA hates the Greeks and wants you to play as a horde faction)
    - Damn history! You scary!



    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Status update:

    Currently turn 3. The Visigoths are dead, The Sassanid Empire haven't attacked yet.

    12466 in the bank, income at 3952.

    No province have sacked/raze or even raided, so far so good.

    No other horde has come down yet.

    I do have some thoughts about my edicts and maybe changing some of them to get more Christianity going.

    Also I'm playing on Hard.

  3. #3

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    wow that trait is awesome i will def play ERE on legendary
    War is Hell, and I'm the Devil!

  4. #4

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Turn 7 now, Sassanids have started attacking, some damage to buildings for sieges but no defeats yet.

    I was betrayed by the Ghassanids and attacked at Tyrus. Same story here, I beat them but some damage to buildings from the attack.

    Alans are moving down from the north, but it's only one horde.

    There's been some spending now but my economy is still growing very nicely. No unit has been recruited though at this point it wouldn't hinder my growth much.

    I did change edict in Macedonia to counteract Mount Olympus paganism buff.

    Treasury is at 25948 and income at 4252.

    I don't yet know at what point (or if I should wait for the interest to catch up) it's optimal to start spending more than my interest to counteract the negative effects of unhappiness, but it will probably work itself out as long as I spend less than my overall income.

    Over all I'd say this strategy is doable. I had a close call with the Ghassanids and the Visigoths but manged to push through.

    I'm going to continue on this campaign until Attila is born and try it on legendary.

    Would recommend the strategy to experienced players.

  5. #5

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by I R Evil Monkey View Post
    Turn 7 now, Sassanids have started attacking, some damage to buildings for sieges but no defeats yet.

    I was betrayed by the Ghassanids and attacked at Tyrus. Same story here, I beat them but some damage to buildings from the attack.

    Alans are moving down from the north, but it's only one horde.

    There's been some spending now but my economy is still growing very nicely. No unit has been recruited though at this point it wouldn't hinder my growth much.

    I did change edict in Macedonia to counteract Mount Olympus paganism buff.

    Treasury is at 25948 and income at 4252.

    I don't yet know at what point (or if I should wait for the interest to catch up) it's optimal to start spending more than my interest to counteract the negative effects of unhappiness, but it will probably work itself out as long as I spend less than my overall income.

    Over all I'd say this strategy is doable. I had a close call with the Ghassanids and the Visigoths but manged to push through.

    I'm going to continue on this campaign until Attila is born and try it on legendary.

    Would recommend the strategy to experienced players.
    The earlier you spend on investment of infrastructure, the more turns its "paying you back" so you get a bigger ROI in the end (more turns of pure profit if all goes well). So generally speaking (haven't tried ERE yet so don't take it as blanket advice) I try early game to reduce military spending whilst increasing infrastructure spending until your economy gets up and running.

  6. #6

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by tat501 View Post
    The earlier you spend on investment of infrastructure, the more turns its "paying you back" so you get a bigger ROI in the end (more turns of pure profit if all goes well). So generally speaking (haven't tried ERE yet so don't take it as blanket advice) I try early game to reduce military spending whilst increasing infrastructure spending until your economy gets up and running.
    This is true. I haven't been able to play enough to compare the numbers and maybe it's just a matter of not spending money on military.

  7. #7
    Sharpe's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    It's difficult. If you do not invest into decent amount of troops in Thrace, Mesopatamia and Egypt early you will lose those provinces to the Visigoths, Sassanids and Axumites respectively.

    I'm just weathering the storm and developing my armies until I can launch a full counter attack.

  8. #8

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    I wish the west had that sort of income

  9. #9

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    I'm playing as the ERE right now as well. I don't really think it's plausible to take advantage of the 5% interest until later on in the game. You simply have too many things to deal with. Also, improving infrastructure in your core provinces increases your income in a way that's not dependent on your treasury. That way you won't need to worry too much about maintaining a larger balance to keep positive income as opposed to if you depended upon the interest income. In the end, I think that trait just gives you a nice income supplement. It's not something to plan around.

  10. #10

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    This might be of some interest to you guys, shows how far you can go using the interest:



    Amazingly based on the numbers that amount is legit, it's rather insane that you can get that amount legit but there it is.
    Last edited by the herald; February 24, 2015 at 09:44 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    So, all we need to find out is when the ROI through opportunity costs on a high treasury becomes higher than the max labour's ROI of the entire ERE... we know a point of that already!

    While your settlements are maxed, and you do not have new building slots yet due to lack of growth.

  12. #12
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    I've been working at the ERE campaign quite a lot, on very hard difficulty. Some thoughts:

    1). The cheapest form of money-making scheme appears to be to build a workshop, which costs 900 denarii and earns 375 extra income per turn. It only takes one turn to build, and once it is constructed, it recoups the cost of its construction after three turns.

    2). The next best option appears to be to upgrade your farms to a sheep farm, which costs 1400 denarii and increases your income by about 500 denarii per turn. So likewise, after three turns it recoups the cost of its construction and begins to turn a profit.

    However, the dilemma is this: at the start of the game, you only have 8,000 denarii - and some of that money needs to be used immediately to build up troops to defend your empire, otherwise you will be attacked and destroyed. Your starting treasury predicts a profit of just 2,000 denarii a turn, so after the first turn you only have enough money to construct two buildings per turn at most, and even that is only possible if you don't spend anything on soldiers - a dangerous and likely impossible course of action, since you are automatically at war with the Visigoths and Huns from turn 1 and will also likely be attacked by the Sassanids.

    So what's the best course of action? Does anyone have any advice? I don't see how the 'save' strategy can work - how did you avoid being overrun and destroyed by the Visigoths in the opening turns? Are you playing on 'Very Hard'?

  13. #13

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    March
    Egyptian army towards Hellas
    Northern army towards Constantinople, avoid combat
    Armies from the Jordan towards Antioch
    Mesopotamian armies towards Constantinople
    Train 4 Cohorts with your army in Constantinople
    You should have 4 Legions soon - two in Hellas, two in eastern Syria.

    Huns, Gepids, Visigoths:
    -> Merge armies in Thracia / Hellas. Attack Visigoths only once you have assembled a full stack. Try to attack the Visigoths only when they are divided, be patient. Don't keep armies in towns unless Constantinople. It is better to yield and lose a few towns than to lose an army. Don't repair buildings or rebuild towns in Thracia / the Balkans, use the space and time they give you to assemble your troops. Once the hordes are destroyed, defeat any Dacians or Macedonians you encounter and reoccupy their lands using your two Legions. Then keep one Legion in Thracia / Northern Hellas as a safeguard, march the other towards Syria.

    Sassanids and satrapies:
    Raze the town north of Edessa, reinforce Edessa with one Legion as a strongpoint (It will become the rock in your eastern defense that you can mount assaults from). Wait for the Sassanids to declare war on you, so that Armenia breaks free of them. Then sign a treaty with Armenia immediately (defensive or military, give them gold if necessary).
    Use the other Legion to mount an assault through the southern weak flank into the soft belly of Mesopotamia. Cross neutral desert territory if you have to. Sack&Raze or Loot&Conquer&Raze any Sassanid town you can hit. Avoid cities, avoid fighting their armies. Use your spies to know where their armies are, and if necessary, slow them down by sabotaging them. Do the same to their Satrapies. Do not make peace with them, try to weaken them by hitting soft targets (empty towns) as much as possible until they succumb and their lands are destroyed.

    Break alliance with West Rome if necessary, to avoid too many conflicts.

    With the money you get from looting Mesopotamia and Persia, build up your economy in Aegyptus, Asia Minor, Insulae Orientalae, and Bythinia. Use farms that provide the best income - if you have enough of them, you'll also have enough food too. Raze churches in Bythinia/Asia Minor, use 1 priest switching regions every year to maintain good christianity. Do the same for Aegyptus/Palestinia. Afterwards, the next step are waterworks in your cities (replace the churches).

    From there on, look westwards. The rich lands of Italia and former West Rome need new overlords.

    Difficulty settings: VH/H or VH/MPC-play.

  14. #14
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    I find it best as the ERE to spend early and save later. Build up forces in the first 3 turns to crush your enemies, then in the first 5 turns make sure every province has food+sanitation+public order. (farms, waterworks, capitol) Fishing Ports are also extremely good as far as food situation goes since they don't scale with fertility.

    Then once all your provinces are set with a Capitol, farms and waterworks, start saving up for money.
    Give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime.
    cant read?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    I've been working at the ERE campaign quite a lot, on very hard difficulty. Some thoughts:

    1). The cheapest form of money-making scheme appears to be to build a workshop, which costs 900 denarii and earns 375 extra income per turn. It only takes one turn to build, and once it is constructed, it recoups the cost of its construction after three turns.
    Actually, with ERE's starting corruption (around -50%), you'll be getting only 185 or so per turn from the workshop, even less since the starting tax rates appear to be negative for Romans. For WRE, it's even worse (only making 20% or 72/turn from workshop due to -80% corruption.

  16. #16

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    Actually, with ERE's starting corruption (around -50%), you'll be getting only 185 or so per turn from the workshop, even less since the starting tax rates appear to be negative for Romans. For WRE, it's even worse (only making 20% or 72/turn from workshop due to -80% corruption.
    Sure that's true, but the same handicap applies to any other building one could choose as well. I don't see how that invalidates the Workshop as a very useful early-game building for getting the economy rolling. I would say that later, after that 5% interest starts kicking in, there's probably better uses for the slot; I've replaced most of my city-industry slots.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    Sure that's true, but the same handicap applies to any other building one could choose as well. I don't see how that invalidates the Workshop as a very useful early-game building for getting the economy rolling. I would say that later, after that 5% interest starts kicking in, there's probably better uses for the slot; I've replaced most of my city-industry slots.
    I generally find that food and sanitation are way more important than a few more ducats you can get from artisans. Food allows me to build happiness buildings (those tend to add to cash too) and town centers. This, in turn, allows me to raise tax rates while maintaining happiness.

  18. #18

    Default Re: ERE - Saving vs Spending

    I think we're largely in agreement here, lol. I think.

    I did find that the quick Level I industry building was useful in the first few turns, though, when trying to get everything going in the right direction.

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