Sarmatians (eg. Roxolani, Alans) should be Indo-European, not Mongoloid

[CagatayKhan]

I really don't feel like lecturing another Turanist on how steppe tribes ALWAYS absorbed tribes/peoples whom they conquered into their confederacies. Let's just say that by the time of the Mongol invasion, the Kipchaks had become somewhat Slavicized. Ex: The Kipchak leaders at the Battle of the Kalka River were named Danylo and Yurii.

Something similar even happened to the Huns. The Huns of the 440s probably appeared more Germanic than Asiatic and largely fought on foot.



Exactly

lol It is good fantasy Russian Kipchaks lol

Blonde people? Who said that? People say, overall, the sarmatian peoples were of iranian stock. That does not equate to being blonde.

I want to proof gneticaly, writing source

[Mr.Freud]

21. Nearly all the Alani are men of great stature and beauty; their hair is somewhat yellow, their eyes are terribly fierce; the lightness of their armour renders them rapid in their movements; and they are in every respect equal to the Huns, only more civilized in their food and their manner of life. They plunder and hunt as far as the Sea of Azov and the Cimmerian Bosphorus, ravaging also Armenia and Media.

Ammianus Marcellinus

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Roman_...y/Book_XXXI#II

[CagatayKhan]

Ammianus Marcellinus

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Roman_...y/Book_XXXI#II

Also Kipchak -Cuman, Fins ,Chuvash ,Some Oghur,Oghuz have yelleow hair,light skin. Top,ic All light skin people isnt Indo aryan.Or all indo aryan have light skin ,yellow hair...

[athanaric]

lol .. you have supernatural abiltiy. You can know my mind. Do you know Chiniese source about avars? Avars were Gouche, Tiele... I think you can be ultra nationalist a chiniesee. What do you think smally ataulfs say taller,blonde ,hndsome indo aryan? Western claim indo-aryan Fins, Wu-sun, Sumerian ,Hatti .. We know they werent indo -aryan now. Western 's registry is awfull about history grab..I'm showing the scientific evidence. Indo Aryan myth occured by colonist Western country . Hitler rised this myth for his ideology..

None of these are valid points. Western academia (regarding historical studies as well as science) has long ago severed any ties with political ideologies, and more importantly is independent of governments. The same cannot be said for Turkey, where the government (!) still tries to brainwash schoolchildren and students with the same 1920s fascist anti-historical crap.
China isn't relevant to this topic, and in any case, the Chinese don't need to exaggerate their historical achievements.
Any Western scholar of the 20th or 21st century will tell you that Sumerians weren't IE (nor were they Turkish in any way, despite the best efforts of many pseudo-historians to "prove" this). Nazis don't count since they were full of , and no academy in the Western world today follows their ideas, anyway.

You said everything delusions... Your proof is Alans,scythian were blonde caucasoid people. Just indo aryan people blonde? Fins,Kiphak,Cumans,Magyar? Russian said polvets to Kipchak. Polevets mean blonde. Russian are very blonde people .Russian said blonde to Kipchak.

If your point is that people of cultures other than Indo-European can be blonde or carry "Caucasoid" features, that's of course correct.
However that has nothing to do with the fact that Alans and Scythians were Iranian peoples with predominantly "Caucasoid" features, regardless of their hair colour.

[Mr.Freud]

If your point is that people of cultures other than Indo-European can be blonde or carry "Caucasoid" features, that's of course correct.
However that has nothing to do with the fact that Alans and Scythians were Iranian peoples with predominantly "Caucasoid" features, regardless of their hair colour.

+1 He wants to believe(for some reason) he's descendant of Scythians so whatever proofs you throw at him - he won't accept them.

[CagatayKhan]

None of these are valid points. Western academia (regarding historical studies as well as science) has long ago severed any ties with political ideologies, and more importantly is independent of governments. The same cannot be said for Turkey, where the government (!) still tries to brainwash schoolchildren and students with the same 1920s fascist anti-historical crap.
China isn't relevant to this topic, and in any case, the Chinese don't need to exaggerate their historical achievements.
Any Western scholar of the 20th or 21st century will tell you that Sumerians weren't IE (nor were they Turkish in any way, despite the best efforts of many pseudo-historians to "prove" this). Nazis don't count since they were full of , and no academy in the Western world today follows their ideas, anyway.


If your point is that people of cultures other than Indo-European can be blonde or carry "Caucasoid" features, that's of course correct.
However that has nothing to do with the fact that Alans and Scythians were Iranian peoples with predominantly "Caucasoid" features, regardless of their hair colour.

So simple
1)Genetically desacandents of Central asian nomad in Iron Age are turkic,ugric,slavic people.
2) We just know some words scythian lang. These words occurs %50 aryan %50 turkic
3) dna and features are diffrent things. Somone have dominant caucasoid dna .But they seem mongolid.(baskhir,kirghiz)Or it can be the direct opposite.(finnish)
4) Scythian -sarmat religion ,art ,life style look like turkic tribes..
5)Osetian geniitc arent related Scythians,sarmatian
6) All iron age nomad are scythian? we dont know
7) We have indo-aryan lang text in iron age in central asia? No
How do you say scythians definetly indo-aryan? Becasue they were caucasoid features lol
It isnt scientific.. I cant tell anything medieval minds people..
Edit: I dont say Sarmat,Scythians definetly tukic. We can argue it .
Kslov is important Russian genetic resaercher.He live in USA. He claim R1 aryan-slavic.But their other claim R1b is turkic, aggulativ lang culture. He know Turkic people havent east asian dna. He cant say turkic people C,Q,N . All people
interpret data for own.
http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~ak...09.pdf#page=11 lol . My claim is more consistent :d

[Maximinus Thrax]

Let's keep it more civil, shall we? Mind you that personal attacks and references are considered off-topic.

[KLAssurbanipal]

CagatayKhan you have some good points but not all.

[HorseArcher]

Why Sarmatians (eg. Roxolani, Alans) are Asians (Mongoloid)?

Sarmatians were Iranian tribes of Indo-European origin.

I don't understand why CA made them as Mongoloid type, as previously in Rome 2 done them correctly.

Don't look for historical accuracy in CA games.
The reason they are different, because the same reason why there are games such as Orcs vs Humans, space aliens vs marines or elves vs orcs.
This game has as much historical accuracy as those listed above.

Language,genetic, phisically apperance are diffrent things. Alans ,sarmatian,scythins roots were unclear

Assumption, not an educated response.
All 3 you mentioned are well researched, based on culture and location.

Something similar even happened to the Huns. The Huns of the 440s probably appeared more Germanic than Asiatic and largely fought on foot.



Exactly

True, and I said this many times in other historic discussions on other forums over my decade on this forum.

[Ariamanesh]

I don't have a problem with Caucasoid Axumites, as long as they're black, that is. Modern day Ethiopians certainly have Caucasoid features.


DNA analyses are very complicated to connect to ethnic or cultural terms. Regarding features, according to the stuff I've read on Scythians and Sarmatians, the Massagetae, Saka, Sarmatians etc. had features resembling modern day Eastern Europeans and/or Indians, depending on regions. I've never seen any evidence that ancient Scythian languages had Turkic words.
If you want to argue about word origins, and any of the other stuff in general, please use peer-reviewed academic literature, and not internet fora or some treatises written by politicians or engineers (or other unqualified people; just saying this pre-emptively because such works have been cited here in the past), especially seeing as this topic is so political.

Yeah This!!!
It seems the Turanists are planning to build some history for themselves!!!!
Everyone can read Herodotus notes about scytians.He mentioned clearly that scytians and persians could spoke with each other with no need of translator!I don't think that Ancient persians could speak with the turkish speaking people without translators haha!

[CagatayKhan]

Yeah This!!!
It seems the Turanists are planning to build some history for themselves!!!!
Everyone can read Herodotus notes about scytians.He mentioned clearly that scytians and persians could spoke with each other with no need of translator!I don't think that Ancient persians could speak with the turkish speaking people without translators haha!

I support my cliam with genetic, writing source, sosyology. We dont know abour scythian lang. We know some words. that occur%50 aryanic ,%50 turkic words..

[LinusLinothorax]

or maybe... copy/paste Huns is easier than make unique units.

Yes. Producing new and exciting features like family trees and siege escalation eat a lot ressources, so we cant be resent about CA, especially as Attila is only 45€ cheap . Making the whole Steppe peoples mongoloid or the whole near East, including Africa, Sassanid is a fair compromise for that price.

[Ecthelion]

Yeah, this is pretty bad.

They did it cause it's more "exotic".

We don't even know for sure if the Huns themselves were "Mongol" in appearance. The prevailing theory is that they were at least in large part Turkic.

[Ariamanesh]

I support my cliam with genetic, writing source, sosyology. We dont know abour scythian lang. We know some words. that occur%50 aryanic ,%50 turkic words..

Man the problem is that genetic is not the only proof that count in ethnic researches!Do you understand my dear?!
And i want you to clearing your point!Do you say that Scythians were Turks?!
And i should remind you that modern Turkish language is way different than the original Turkish because it was affected highly by the middle eastern languages like Persian and Arabic!So if you find the scythian words familiar with Turkish don't get too wonder because it is familiar with the current turkish not original turkish who used by the Altai turks!
And i should add this that there is a huge number of turkish speaking people that are not descendent from the turks and wonderfully call themselves Turks just because of the same propaganda spewed by the governments of some countries like Turkey and Azerbaijan as another person told you before!
At end i sould say that you collect a nice set of genetic information but neither of them can prove your claim and help your cause!
Counting scthians or roxolans or massageteans or sakaes or specially Alans(they were no less than the sassanids to being pure iranian)Iranians is not an Arianism or what soever you call that because its done by the unbiased researchers of the western academies that have no ties with iranians or so called ariyan people!

[CagatayKhan]

Man the problem is that genetic is not the only proof that count in ethnic researches!Do you understand my dear?!
And i want you to clearing your point!Do you say that Scythians were Turks?!
And i should remind you that modern Turkish language is way different than the original Turkish because it was affected highly by the middle eastern languages like Persian and Arabic!So if you find the scythian words familiar with Turkish don't get too wonder because it is familiar with the current turkish not original turkish who used by the Altai turks!
And i should add this that there is a huge number of turkish speaking people that are not descendent from the turks and wonderfully call themselves Turks just because of the same propaganda spewed by the governments of some countries like Turkey and Azerbaijan as another person told you before!
At end i sould say that you collect a nice set of genetic information but neither of them can prove your claim and help your cause!
Counting scthians or roxolans or massageteans or sakaes or specially Alans(they were no less than the sassanids to being pure iranian)Iranians is not an Arianism or what soever you call that because its done by the unbiased researchers of the western academies that have no ties with iranians or so called ariyan people!

Hey dude . Turkish have lots of persian words ). And Perisaan have lots of Turkish words.But I dont mention it. Linguist research its. I say etimolgic root turkic words. The words are in all tukic lang( Tuva, Baskir, Tatar ..) Lot of Perisan aren persian descandent. Lots of aryan aren descandent of aryan :d Genetic ,morphologic,linguistic iformaiton are real proof :d .. Europians says real Ariyan R1a Y haplogroup central asian nomads however persian wouldnt be real ariyan. I dnt talk about real ariyan.This issue is between Persians,Europians ,Indians .t isn my problem . My problem Scythians,Sarmaitans,Alans etc. I am saying their ethncitiy is unclear. They can be Turkic,Ugric, Aryanic or Proto Turkic-Aryanic culture. ... Turan culture are diffrent from Perisa. As black &white..

[Darios]

Hey dude . Turkish have lots of persian words ). And Perisaan have lots of Turkish words.But I dont mention it. Linguist research its. I say etimolgic root turkic words. The words are in all tukic lang( Tuva, Baskir, Tatar ..) Lot of Perisan aren persian descandent. Lots of aryan aren descandent of aryan :d Genetic ,morphologic,linguistic iformaiton are real proof :d .. Europians says real Ariyan R1a Y haplogroup central asian nomads however persian wouldnt be real ariyan. I dnt talk about real ariyan.This issue is between Persians,Europians ,Indians .t isn my problem . My problem Scythians,Sarmaitans,Alans etc. I am saying their ethncitiy is unclear. They can be Turkic,Ugric, Aryanic or Proto Turkic-Aryanic culture. ... Turan culture are diffrent for Perisa. As black &white..

As you must have already clearly noticed, you're the only person around here who believes that the Sarmatians were Turks and even worse you are the only person throwing around the word "Aryan" in a 19th century/fascist context.

Did anyone notice that in the game the "Alanic" units look European while the "Sarmatian" units look East Asian? Shouldn't they be one and the same?)) CA managed to fix the Persian beards so I'm holding out hope that they will also fix the Sarmatians to make them look true to history.

[Hresvelgr]

It's possible, they did change Spanish uniforms in ETW even after giving the reason for why they were the ahistorical yellow color in the first place.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Yeah, this is pretty bad.

They did it cause it's more "exotic".

We don't even know for sure if the Huns themselves were "Mongol" in appearance. The prevailing theory is that they were at least in large part Turkic.

They were predominately a mix of Altai and Oghur Turk. The way they are presented is pretty much how they would have looked.

Remember the modern Turks look nothing like their ancestors because they are not predominately Turkish, they're called Tyrks.

[HorseArcher]

Turkic vs Turkish is about as different as Huns vs Hungarians. Some (a lot) mix the 2, disregarding several hundred years in the process and misrepresentation due to general ignorance and lack of information and misguidance for many centuries.

[CagatayKhan]

As you must have already clearly noticed, you're the only person around here who believes that the Sarmatians were Turks and even worse you are the only person throwing around the word "Aryan" in a 19th century/fascist context.

Did anyone notice that in the game the "Alanic" units look European while the "Sarmatian" units look East Asian? Shouldn't they be one and the same?)) CA managed to fix the Persian beards so I'm holding out hope that they will also fix the Sarmatians to make them look true to history.

Dear Darios. Sarmatian,Alans could be aryan , turkic, hungarian , uralic ,aryan-turkic, turkic-hungarian mix culture, turkificated aryan, aryanzaited turkic. There are possibilities.I think more should be examined. 18. centruy national building systems, colonist Brtian in INDA ,more later Nazism used aryan theory.. This is a fact.
I think Alans, Sarmat,even Huns apperance should be caucasoid-mongolid mix such as east slavs, tatars,chuvash,bashkir. They arent as Celts in Rome 2 or Mongollian ,Korean, Kazakh in Attila. I think Xioghnu and Western Huns didint occurs %100 same tribes.
CA say all posibility that they can be turkic or aryan for informaiton of UAR warriors . But CA didnt say al posibility for Alans,sarmaitan,Scythians.. Anglo_saxon,Russian,China,Perisa,Turkic World view can think diffrently.