Which country really had the best tech in WWII?

[Vanoi]

Correct. It had nothing to do with any sceintific superiority and everything to do with the total defeat of every arm of the German military. Wunderwaffen X, Y and Z all failed to stave off defeat.

And the point flies right over your head. Germany was defeated in WW1 too, but their scientists weren't divided up among the victors. Your intentionally ignoring the that Germany's scientists were the leading experts on rocket technology. Not one allied nation had ballistic missiles like the Nazis did.

Without people like Wernher von Braun, the US would have found it very hard to land on the moon or even develop a space program.

[Enros]

And the point flies right over your head. Germany was defeated in WW1 too, but their scientists weren't divided up among the victors. Your intentionally ignoring the that Germany's scientists were the leading experts on rocket technology. Not one allied nation had ballistic missiles like the Nazis did.

Without people like Wernher von Braun, the US would have found it very hard to land on the moon or even develop a space program.

They were valuable but not that valuable. The US would have gotten there eventually, maybe costing a few billion more, maybe in 1970s instead of 1969. If it was in 1972, it would be a great marker for the year America stopped doing unethical human experimentation on black people.

[Vanoi]

They were valuable but not that valuable. The US would have gotten there eventually, maybe costing a few billion more, maybe in 1970s instead of 1969. If it was in 1972, it would be a great marker for the year America stopped doing unethical human experimentation on black people.

How? Explain to me where the US is going to get the same knowledge Wernher von Braun had. What other people in the world had the same extensive knowledge on rockets and ballistic missile Wernher von Braun or the German scientists had?

[Mangalore]

How? Explain to me where the US is going to get the same knowledge Wernher von Braun had. What other people in the world had the same extensive knowledge on rockets and ballistic missile Wernher von Braun or the German scientists had?

The Western sciences did exchange most of their knowledge during peacetime. The concepts of ballistics just as well as nuclear science were known to all of them. It was mainly the practical knowledge and the fact to remove that knowledge from germany and add it to your own that was done, not some magical stuff the Allies were incapable of. In reverse despite the loss of so much senior brain power germany did remain one of the premier science countries. A lot of the frontier research has moved to the US during the Cold War (slowly some parity has been reached with stuff like Iter, the LHC and ESA while less funded than NASA is doing a lot to get similar cutting edge research knowledge.) Overall the science today is so integrated it is silly. There were NASA guys on the Philae mission, there were ESA guys or European equipment on NASA missions.


In a way it was more about patents and applied technology than theoretical knowledge or science.

[Enros]

How? Explain to me where the US is going to get the same knowledge Wernher von Braun had. What other people in the world had the same extensive knowledge on rockets and ballistic missile Wernher von Braun or the German scientists had?

There were tens of thousands of people involved in the Apollo program. I've read some of their reports and they form the basis for a lot of what mechanical and chemical engineering undergrduates study today. Wernher Von Braun was the most important individually but he was still just one person among tens of thousands and like everyone else was replaceable. American scientists designed new alloys to survive the most hostile environments humans had ever explored, and invented new types of rocket chemistry. Of course they could replace Von Braun. The easiest part is actually using Newton's laws and the rocket equation.

[Markas]

There were tens of thousands of people involved in the Apollo program. I've read some of their reports and they form the basis for a lot of what mechanical and chemical engineering undergrduates study today. Wernher Von Braun was the most important individually but he was still just one person among tens of thousands and like everyone else was replaceable. American scientists designed new alloys to survive the most hostile environments humans had ever explored, and invented new types of rocket chemistry. Of course they could replace Von Braun. The easiest part is actually using Newton's laws and the rocket equation.

This was taken of Von Braun's team in the Army Ballistic Missile Agency in 1959. All were formerly of the Third Reich (save Medaris). Not to mention half the civilian team of the development of the first major US tactical missile at Redstone in the 50's. It's hard to understate how essential Von Braun and his teams' practical experience were to the Apollo Program.

[Vanoi]

You're both still missing the point. These scientists were critical in not only the US's rocket programs but the Soviet Unions as well. These scientists allowed the Soviets and Americans to advance their rocket and space technologies much much quicker than if they would have had to start at square one.

Enros, you still have not explained once why Wernher was replaceable. Again who else in the world pioneered rocket technology? Those 10,000 people don't matter one bit if they did't build off ofWernher's and the other German scientists knowledge in rocketry.

[Enros]

This was taken of Von Braun's team in the Army Ballistic Missile Agency in 1959. All were formerly of the Third Reich (save Medaris). Not to mention half the civilian team of the development of the first major US tactical missile at Redstone in the 50's. It's hard to understate how essential Von Braun and his teams' practical experience were to the Apollo Program.

350,000 were contracted for the Apollo program, and tens of thousands of them were scientists. Germans aren't so good at science that they are better than all of that.

You're both still missing the point. These scientists were critical in not only the US's rocket programs but the Soviet Unions as well. These scientists allowed the Soviets and Americans to advance their rocket and space technologies much much quicker than if they would have had to start at square one.

Enros, you still have not explained once why Wernher was replaceable. Again who else in the world pioneered rocket technology? Those 10,000 people don't matter one bit if they did't build off ofWernher's and the other German scientists knowledge in rocketry.

Quicker but not much quicker. Maybe I'm biased in that I spend my time at university learning the equations these people pioneered, but they are not that difficult. American and Soviet scientists knew the all of the equations the the Germans knew and had even more scientific data available to them than the Germans. The advantage the Germans had was that they had built rockets before, while the Americans and Soviets had not. That's it, their advantage was practical, not theoretical. There wasn't some magical theories that were in these Germans' heads that nobody else knew. They were useful consultants, and if the Germans weren't available, Sputnik and Apollo would still have happened just with slightly larger budget of time and money.

Sure, it's a big help, but that tiny team Markas posted in his picture above is still just one cog in a very big machine.

[Hresvelgr]

America wouldn't have missed much were Wernher von Braun to be hanged at Nuremberg.

[Markas]

350,000 were contracted for the Apollo program, and tens of thousands of them were scientists. Germans aren't so good at science that they are better than all of that.

The Rockets they designed made the Apollo Program possible... he and Arthur designed the Saturn V rockets god's sakes.

I'll glad Vanoi isn't affected by this bizarre American denialism. Perhaps you should learn something from him.

[humble]

You're both still missing the point. These scientists were critical in not only the US's rocket programs but the Soviet Unions as well. These scientists allowed the Soviets and Americans to advance their rocket and space technologies much much quicker than if they would have had to start at square one.

Enros, you still have not explained once why Wernher was replaceable. Again who else in the world pioneered rocket technology? Those 10,000 people don't matter one bit if they did't build off ofWernher's and the other German scientists knowledge in rocketry.

Now it is getting absurd. Is it possible that some believe that the principles of rocketry can only spring from a German mind and no other nation can ever replicate German achievements?
The UK was working on the Fairey Stooge and Brakemine whilst the US developed the Bat in 1945.

[Enros]

The Rockets they designed made the Apollo Program possible... he and Arthur designed the Saturn V rockets god's sakes.

I'll glad Vanoi isn't affected by this bizarre American denialism. Perhaps you should learn something from him.

It's impossible for a team that small to design something that complex. They were a valuable team of consultants, but the Saturn V was designed by thousands of people, many of them doing very tedious experiments over and over again.

Also, I am not an American.

[Tankfriend]

Enros, you still have not explained once why Wernher was replaceable. Again who else in the world pioneered rocket technology? Those 10,000 people don't matter one bit if they did't build off ofWernher's and the other German scientists knowledge in rocketry.

This kind of makes it sound like there was absolutely no way whatsoever to develop ballistic missile technology without von Braun and other German scientists. And I can't really see an absolute like that being true. It would've taken much longer, and would've been much more expensive, but the development would've happened eventually.

[Vanoi]

This kind of makes it sound like there was absolutely no way whatsoever to develop ballistic missile technology without von Braun and other German scientists. And I can't really see an absolute like that being true. It would've taken much longer, and would've been much more expensive, but the development would've happened eventually.

Not just much longer and more expensive but also not as good. Germans not only developed rockets, they used them.

Development rocketry is one thing. Perfecting it is another. Americans could develop rockets, but that doesn't mean the are going to be as good as what the Germans had which is why the Americans and Soviets went to extreme lengths to acquire these scientists. Because the Germans had the best rocket technology around and scientists for developing it.

[Hanny]

1 Wernher Von Braun was the most important individually but he was still just one person among tens of thousands and like everyone else was replaceable.

2 American scientists designed new alloys to survive the most hostile environments humans had ever explored, and invented new types of rocket chemistry. Of course they could replace Von Braun.


3 The easiest part is actually using Newton's laws and the rocket equation.

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/ch1.htm 1 and 2 was done by Germans, not Americans.


http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassi...nse-secretary/ 1 contained 1500 former Nazis, heading up the importnat posts worth mentioning, Von Braun and his Nazi team at white sands had by 1950 designed and had operation a 3 stage solid fuel, again designed by Gerrman building on German pionering work, rocket program, that was the core design for Apollo.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nazi-...am-2014-2?IR=T

1 2 3 was done in the main, by Germans, for the USA.

It's impossible for a team that small to design something that complex. They were a valuable team of consultants, but the Saturn V was designed by thousands of people, many of them doing very tedious experiments over and over again.

Also, I am not an American.

Er no, design of a complex nature is relativly simple, rerquires very few highly skilled persons, however putting into production so that the complexity actually works as designed does require a vast skilled pool of engineers, hence the huge number of Americans used to produce Apollo. Saturn 5 was designed by Von Braun and his 500ish Nazi team, + Americans.

[humble]

So we have moved from the initial claim 'all' German technology was 'superior' and now use advances in one area to prove that Germany was the most advanced nation in WW2. Quite a downshift.
A pity this high-tech country was not able to find a replacement for the millions of horses in its army in 1945.

[Hanny]

Germany was a resource inferior nation, so had to achieve superiority of material to ofset the imposobility of winning any war based on atttition, so in many instances its better technology, which was what German industry was based on doing, ie high end performence rather than average mass production, Germany did have a qualtive advantage in tech, but since the Allies responded by increasing their own inferiority, this was in most cases a tempory advantage that never could overcome the material advantges the Allies had, you could simply state that the Germans had 2 armies, one based on rail and horse, and the other on RR and MT, the former grew larger by end of war, and was a belated attempt top prolong the war beyond the will of the Allies to prosecute it because the tech and doctrinal advanatges of the Germans was unable to overcome the effects of attrition, while the Allies closed the tech and doctinal gap during the conflict, many Geramns designs stayed in service in Nato till the late 50s.

[humble]

, many Geramns designs stayed in service in Nato till the late 50s.

List them so we can see this vast pool of technical superior weapons.
Germany was forced , by desperation, to field all manner of impractical weapons that were not battle worthy in 1945. Aircraft that were years from maturity were thrown into combat with predictable results. The Allies on the other hand had no need to put their jets in harms way because their bog standard piston engined aircraft wiped the Luftwaffe from the sky. They could afford to wait until design caught up with theory. This is not technical inferiority. It is common sense.
The Germans could not even develop a durable transmission for her tanks and thus was handicaped with many hundreds of 'uber-panzers' sitting in workshops and thus useless. All fur coat and no knickers.

[Cyclops]

... All fur coat and no knickers.

Yes Nazi tech was patchy for all sorts of reasons. They inherited a wonderful chemicals industry from the Second Reich, as well as a capable heavy industry sector and developed some excellent bits of aeronautic and other tech.

On Braun, I'm pretty sure NASA gave it space flight program to US contractors (not sure who the company was) who built crappy Mercury rockets with a habit of exploding on launch, and they had to use Braun's more reliable Jupiter designs (which the military had wisely adopted ) as a basis for the Saturn series.

[Enros]

On Braun, I'm pretty sure NASA gave it space flight program to US contractors (not sure who the company was) who built crappy Mercury rockets with a habit of exploding on launch, and they had to use Braun's more reliable Jupiter designs (which the military had wisely adopted ) as a basis for the Saturn series.

Since when can even a small team of people design something like that?