Chivalry or Dread?

[MadKnight]

So... family members should pursue Chivalry.... Recruited/Adopted Generals should pursue Dread? Is this the status quo?

[k_Apollo]

Not really. It depends on what you want. High reputation demands chivalrous faction leaders and heirs, but reputation isn't worth a whole lot if you ask me.
So I prefer dread, a lot more useful on the battlefield. It might be a good idea to have a few high chivalry governors around though, to help grow settlements (certainly if you're playing mods).

[tudor93]

Both have pros and cons. So it's not about which way is better, but which way suits you most.
I like to be chivalrous, I always occupy, realease the prisoners, never use assassins. I use spies only in my own cities to help me detect foreign agents.
Many players also like to mix. Dreadful family members are used as generals and the chivalrous ones as governors. As Apollo stated, if you play mods (like SS6.4 for example), you really need a high chivalry governor because it's almost impossible to get a citadel level settlement in that mod (for each chivalry point of the governor the population growth is increased by 0.5% IIRC).

[Comrade Roboto]

Not really. It depends on what you want. High reputation demands chivalrous faction leaders and heirs, but reputation isn't worth a whole lot if you ask me.
So I prefer dread, a lot more useful on the battlefield. It might be a good idea to have a few high chivalry governors around though, to help grow settlements (certainly if you're playing mods).

Eh, low reputation makes you a total loser in diplomacy though.

[puddingkip]

Eh, low reputation makes you a total loser in diplomacy though.

Medieval 2's diplomacy is barely useful anyway.

And dread is way better than chivalry in my opinion. Dread makes you win battles, dread makes the people fear you and a 10 dread general is so op it's hilarious to see. Chivalry is only good for governors but generals bodyguard are such extremely good units it's a waste to use them as governors

[Maklodes]

I like chivalry to get a castle up to citadel level or a city up to huge city level. After that, the governor can go elsewhere -- ideally another underdeveloped settlement. Dread is probably a bit more useful for battles -- but chivalry is certainly better than nothing.

On the whole, though, I try to "go with the flow" -- try to make my chivalrous generals more chivalrous and avoid dreadful stuff with them, try to make my dreadful generals more dreadful and avoid chivalrous stuff with them. If a general seems to be going toward chivalry, I'm not going to fight against that and say "no! I wanted you to have dread!"

Note: That doesn't mean I always do the most chivalrous or dreadful thing with a general that leans that way -- if I have a high dread general and I take a nice city, I'd usually much rather sack than exterminate, because extermination just sets the city back so far and doesn't give much money, and it's not as if sacking will ruin him with chivalry. Likewise, with a high-chivalry general, if I capture like 800 prisoners, with many of them being quality troops, I'd probably ransom rather than release, because releasing that many captives would just suck.

If a general is young and doesn't have chivalrous or dreadful inclinations yet, I look for opportunities. If there's a crusading opportunity (or jihad, mutatis mutandis), you can very quickly turn him into like a +7 chivalry general (+3 crusader, +2 Hospitaller/Templar knight retinues, +2 StrategyChivalry (from joining the crusade and occupying the crusade target)). That's nothing to turn down. If you're using a lot of assassins, though, and your assassin-training city has no governor, you could stick the young guy there and he'll quickly get plenty of dread. (Overseeing the training of four assassins will get him up to "Merciless leader" for a cool +3 to dread).

[lampros69]

Both have pros and cons. So it's not about which way is better, but which way suits you most.
I like to be chivalrous, I always occupy, realease the prisoners, never use assassins. I use spies only in my own cities to help me detect foreign agents.
Many players also like to mix. Dreadful family members are used as generals and the chivalrous ones as governors. As Apollo stated, if you play mods (like SS6.4 for example), you really need a high chivalry governor because it's almost impossible to get a citadel level settlement in that mod (for each chivalry point of the governor the population growth is increased by 0.5% IIRC).

I always pursue Chivalry as well, especially since I only play SS, and Chivalry seems clearly more advantageous in that game.

Nonetheless, there are instances where you are almost forced to accumulate Dread: E.g. where the AI opponent is spamming Assassins against you, and you have to counter with Assassins.

[mystang89]

Is my understanding correct in that dread also affects your troops as well or just the enemy troops? Also I know that with a chivalry king it improves your relations and when you as king go into battle and completely massacre the enemy, where at the end of the battle it asks you if you want to continue and you say yes, that it adds dread, along with executing prisons. The question is that if you have a general who isn't related and they do that, does that affect your relations with how other countries see you or does that just affect the general who executed them?

[tudor93]

Is my understanding correct in that dread also affects your troops as well or just the enemy troops?

I know that if you general has dread, then the morale of nearby enemy units will drop (but it won't have any effect on your troops). If he has high chivalry, then your nearby troops will have boosted morale (but the enemy isn't affected). I'm not sure about this though, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also I know that with a chivalry king it improves your relations and when you as king go into battle and completely massacre the enemy, where at the end of the battle it asks you if you want to continue and you say yes, that it adds dread, along with executing prisons.

Yes, if you have a chivalrous ruler it will improve your global reputation. As for the executing part, doesn't matter if the family member is a full chivalry king, a full dread king or any other chivalry/dread family member, if you execute prisoners you get dread.
If you execute prisoners with a regular FM (not the king) I think you still get a penalty on your relations with that faction + penalty on global reputation. Again, I'm not sure about this.

[Maklodes]

Is my understanding correct in that dread also affects your troops as well or just the enemy troops? Also I know that with a chivalry king it improves your relations

Yes, if you have a chivalrous ruler it will improve your global reputation.

I don't think this is true; chivalry and dread have no impact on your relations with other factions that I've been able to find in descr_faction_standing.txt -- although the things that you do to acquire chivalry/dread, such as releasing or executing prisoners, often have an impact on relations with other factions.

and when you as king go into battle and completely massacre the enemy, where at the end of the battle it asks you if you want to continue and you say yes, that it adds dread,

This is another thing that I don't think is strictly true: pressing continue/end battle has no impact on chivalry/dread that I can find in export_descr_character_traits.txt. However, your continued actions after continuing the battle make it more likely that you will fulfill the criteria to gain battledread.

For example, if you win a heroic victory with odds being 0.95:1 against you, and kill/capture 65% of the enemy during battle, that's below the 70% threshold needed for battle3Dread_TotalAnnihilation, but if you continue the battle and capture another 10% of their forces, meaning you capture/kill 75%, then you can get more battle dread (unless you already have battle chivalry). However, if you already had killed 70+% of their forces before the "End/Continue battle" dialogue comes up, then you'd still be eligible for the battle3Dread_TotalAnnihilation trigger. Pressing "continue" or "end" itself has no direct impact.

along with executing prisons.

As for the executing part, doesn't matter if the family member is a full chivalry king, a full dread king or any other chivalry/dread family member, if you execute prisoners you get dread.

Bear in mind that you only get chivalry/dread effects from executing/releasing 81+ prisoners.

The question is that if you have a general who isn't related and they do that, does that affect your relations with how other countries see you or does that just affect the general who executed them?

If you execute prisoners with a regular FM (not the king) I think you still get a penalty on your relations with that faction + penalty on global reputation. Again, I'm not sure about this.

To second tudor93, executing prisoners, as far as I know, always causes a deterioration in global standing and relations with the faction whose prisoners you executed and their allies, regardless of whether the army is lead by a captain, non-family general, family member, or ruler.

[Aymer de Valence]

Chivalry if you don't have faith in your troops, but dread if you are looking for a quick victory....

[mystang89]

Thanks very interesting to note. I just finished a battle with the moors, ALWAYS the first faction to attack me (Portugal) and I have taken 41 prisoners. It stinks that it still affects global relations as I work on those constantly and, during one of my game plays, actually had immaculate even with me assassinating many people. I tend to tell other countries I will attack so and so for a little money then go attack them and that makes people happy. Again, normally its the moors I tell people I will attack as we are always at war.

I think after reading all this I will try to make my war generals except for heirs and kings dread but my city rulers I will try to keep chivalrous if possible.

[MadKnight]

Great posts! Thank you all very much for insight into this area of MTWII

[Comrade Roboto]

Medieval 2's diplomacy is barely useful anyway.

And dread is way better than chivalry in my opinion. Dread makes you win battles, dread makes the people fear you and a 10 dread general is so op it's hilarious to see. Chivalry is only good for governors but generals bodyguard are such extremely good units it's a waste to use them as governors

Yep true, too bad diplomacy "favours" chivalry then. That's why I nearly never can make a faction my vassal unless they have like 1 settlement left and I pay them 100k+. Though it's WAY easier to just conquer them, I find it more fun to make them your female dog. As for releasing prisoners to build rep... I just can't do it. Once I defeated an English almost full stack by making most of them rout and killing very few of them. I had nearly all of their soldiers as prisoners, but them I accidentally clicked "release". Needless to say their army was back almost in full strenght to fight me again next turn .

[puddingkip]

Yep true, too bad diplomacy "favours" chivalry then. That's why I nearly never can make a faction my vassal unless they have like 1 settlement left and I pay them 100k+. Though it's WAY easier to just conquer them, I find it more fun to make them your female dog. As for releasing prisoners to build rep... I just can't do it. Once I defeated an English almost full stack by making most of them rout and killing very few of them. I had nearly all of their soldiers as prisoners, but them I accidentally clicked "release". Needless to say their army was back almost in full strenght to fight me again next turn .

I had the highest level of being liked once (immaculate? I'm despicable all the time so I can't really remember) as France in vanilla. I took a few rebel settlements and then around turn 50 I was betrayed by the hre, Milan, England and Spain all within 5 turns. Last time I'll be nice, killing them is way more effective and the AI will betray you anyway. Except if you were despicable you would own more than half the map at turn 50, not a measly 7 territories

[Comrade Roboto]

I had the highest level of being liked once (immaculate? I'm despicable all the time so I can't really remember) as France in vanilla. I took a few rebel settlements and then around turn 50 I was betrayed by the hre, Milan, England and Spain all within 5 turns. Last time I'll be nice, killing them is way more effective and the AI will betray you anyway. Except if you were despicable you would own more than half the map at turn 50, not a measly 7 territories

Heh, nice guys DO finish last (at least in M2). And besides, it's France, who likes them anyways lol.

[UndrState]

The only causes worth fighting are lost causes.

[Maklodes]

Maybe if you have a choice between 10 chivalry and 10 dread, or 5 chivalry or 5 dread, you'd rather have dread, but in my experience, that's rarely actually the choice you face. If you have a general who gets "cruel and cunning" and stuff, by all means try to cultivate some dread, but if you have a general with "fair fighter" and "fair in rule," and you see the opportunity to crusade, you could easily get him up to 9 chivalry (+1 fair fighter, +3 strategy chivalry (4 points, 1 start, 1 from joining the crusade, 1 from occupying the target, 1 from building a small church the turn after), +3 crusader, +1 Hospitaller knight, +1 Templar knight). Getting him to 3 net dread, on the other hand, might be like pulling teeth. (Just getting rid of the BattleChivalry traits requires retreating from battle and possibly ending up with coward traits too.) I think I'd rather have 9 chivalry than 3 dread or something.

[RuthlessChubbz]

Eh, low reputation makes you a total loser in diplomacy though.

At some stage during the game I find you'll be making so much money that you can generally pay for ceasefires, alliances, etc so I've never found it to be an issue.

In regards to incurring dread by actions during battle, I've always believed (but never actually investigated) that the tactics you employ are a factor as well. i.e. I love missile troops and I use horse archers on a regular basis. One of my favourite tactics is to park 3 units on the left side (my left) of their army and another 3 or 4 in the rear of their and then slaughtering them while they approach my sitting army. And that's about the point my normal archers open up as well, and then my javelin calvary if I have any. Oh and I spam about 2 manongels at the same time as well. 30-40% dead before my infantry and calvary engage.

In cases where it's a small amount of their troops I'm just clearing from the field I use horse archers but wipe them out utterly without taking any prisoners at all. As a result of these tactics I do not take many prisoners and usually wipe out their army utterly, and all of my generals have high dread. Usually it's my family members including my faction heir & king that are leading these armies as well so it doesn't do much for my reputation.

I draw the line at executing though and will usually ransom or release unless it's a large amount of quality troops or the other faction is cashed up.

[Comrade Roboto]

At some stage during the game I find you'll be making so much money that you can generally pay for ceasefires, alliances, etc so I've never found it to be an issue.

In regards to incurring dread by actions during battle, I've always believed (but never actually investigated) that the tactics you employ are a factor as well. i.e. I love missile troops and I use horse archers on a regular basis. One of my favourite tactics is to park 3 units on the left side (my left) of their army and another 3 or 4 in the rear of their and then slaughtering them while they approach my sitting army. And that's about the point my normal archers open up as well, and then my javelin calvary if I have any. Oh and I spam about 2 manongels at the same time as well. 30-40% dead before my infantry and calvary engage.

In cases where it's a small amount of their troops I'm just clearing from the field I use horse archers but wipe them out utterly without taking any prisoners at all. As a result of these tactics I do not take many prisoners and usually wipe out their army utterly, and all of my generals have high dread. Usually it's my family members including my faction heir & king that are leading these armies as well so it doesn't do much for my reputation.

I draw the line at executing though and will usually ransom or release unless it's a large amount of quality troops or the other faction is cashed up.

Just stating a fact. I do agree that with enough florins you can do pretty much what you want in diplomacy. Heck, if you have enough gold you'd probably be able to marry off your king to the Pope if that option was available.