Will Atilla have pike units?

[Lionheart11]

One of my favorite units From Rome 1 and Rome 2, although better in Rome 1 imo. My question is will Atilla feature pike units?, where they of the period?.

[reliablePersian]

One of my favorite units From Rome 1 and Rome 2, although better in Rome 1 imo. My question is will Atilla feature pike units?, where they of the period?.

yes there will be pike units for the visigoths i think but all in all there are pike units in the game

[Lugotorix]

One of my favorite units From Rome 1 and Rome 2, although better in Rome 1 imo. My question is will Atilla feature pike units?, where they of the period?.

Ostrogoths have them as their traditional TW promo unit. I'd bet other factions do also.

[Ognjen Todorović]

Some "Barbarian" factions should have them, as many barbarians copied Macedonian Phalanx. Pikes where put out of use during the era in whom is Empire Total War sets, doue to invention of "rifle add-ons" whom turn the rifles into pikes. So yeah, 100% sure there are going to be at least two factions using them.

[Linke]

Yes, they'll have to be changed though to be more realistic

[KLAssurbanipal]

Probably all Germanic factions have Macedonian phalanx. They are in Ostrogothic preview. There is the same animation as Rome 2.

http://wiki.totalwar.com/images/3/3c...strogoths2.png

In 3 Vikings faction roster there are "Nordic Pikemen'' units, so if 3 viking factions and Ostrogoths have them, probably all barbarian factions have Macedonian phalanx.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/335020/

Some "Barbarian" factions should have them, as many barbarians copied Macedonian Phalanx. Pikes where put out of use during the era in whom is Empire Total War sets, doue to invention of "rifle add-ons" whom turn the rifles into pikes. So yeah, 100% sure there are going to be at least two factions using them.

German factions from Attila age NEVER used phalanx in Macedonian style. It's completely fantasy. Macedonian phalanx was death with end of Hellenistic era. In Severan time were tried to return phalanx without results. After it phalangites weren't use.

[Påsan]

And so the bravest nations tore themselves to pieces. For then, I think, must have occurred a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugi breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suavi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors."

From Jordanes, and that's really all the secondary sources you need for a TW unit.

KLA: You're just mad because the Goths use the same animation setup as the Greeks. But in how many ways can you use a pike really, get over it.

[KLAssurbanipal]

Certainly it wasn't a Macedonian phalanx style. Spears were shorter and definitely order of battle wasn't so accurate. See that they even have shields similar to Macedonian. There weren't sources of such an exact copy of Macedonian style.

[Abdülmecid I]

From Jordanes, and that's really all the secondary sources you need for a TW unit.

Jordanes wasn't a Brit, Pasan. The text you quoted is a mediocre translation from latin. Mediocre, because the latin word "kontos" is not exactly a pike, it's just a rather long spear that can be held with one hand, not even remotely resembling a sarissa. Infact, iirc, the gothic spearmen were one of the few units BI portrayed somewhat accurately. On their right hand, they had a long spear, a bit longer than the spears of the limitanei or the lanciarii, and on their left hand they held the classic hexagonical shields. Still much better, imo, than those laughable Ostrogothic phalanxes.

[RGA]

Jordanes wasn't a Brit, Pasan. The text you quoted is a mediocre translation from latin. Mediocre, because the latin word "kontos" is not exactly a pike, it's just a rather long spear that can be held with one hand, not even remotely resembling a sarissa. Infact, iirc, the gothic spearmen were one of the few units BI portrayed somewhat accurately. On their right hand, they had a long spear, a bit longer than the spears of the limitanei or the lanciarii, and on their left hand they held the classic hexagonical shields. Still much better, imo, than those laughable Ostrogothic phalanxes.

I don't know any Latins but AFAIK, "kontos" was also a very long lance of Samaritan cavalry, hold by two hands, later adopted by Roman cataphracts (in the same way shock cavalry in Rome 2 hold their lances). Such long weapon would be pretty unwieldy in one hand IMHO.

[Darios]

I don't know any Latins but AFAIK, "kontos" was also a very long lance of Samaritan cavalry, hold by two hands, later adopted by Roman cataphracts (in the same way shock cavalry in Rome 2 hold their lances). Such long weapon would be pretty unwieldy in one hand IMHO.

Quite true, but it doesn't mean that they fought in a Macedonian Phalanx. Just because a unit uses pikes doesn't mean that they were trying to emulate Alexander. Roman writers threw around the term "phalanx" for any type of units fighting in a line. Sometimes in interpreting history people take these things far too literally. The Strategkon clearly states that the Germanic tribes did not fight with any kind of organization and charged relentlessly into battle. Now imagine them trying to organize themselves into a Macedonian phalanx....

Around the time of Heraclius the kontos also became standard for Byzantine spearmen...doesn't mean that they fought as a Macedonian phalanx.

[Abdülmecid I]

I don't know any Latins but AFAIK, "kontos" was also a very long lance of Samaritan cavalry, hold by two hands, later adopted by Roman cataphracts (in the same way shock cavalry in Rome 2 hold their lances). Such long weapon would be pretty unwieldy in one hand IMHO.

What said Darios, but also keep in mind that there's a difference between cavalry and infantry. The Sarmatians used it as an offensive weapon to make their charge even more lethal to the enemy, while the Ostrogothic spearmen and the Macedonian sarissophoroi used it primarmy as a defensive weapon. If the mounted sarmatians held it on one hand, kontos would be more unstable and far less accurate, not to mention that shields are less useful for cavalry than they're for infantry.

[RGA]

What said Darios, but also keep in mind that there's a difference between cavalry and infantry. The Sarmatians used it as an offensive weapon to make their charge even more lethal to the enemy, while the Ostrogothic spearmen and the Macedonian sarissophoroi used it primarmy as a defensive weapon. If the mounted sarmatians held it on one hand, kontos would be more unstable and far less accurate, not to mention that shields are less useful for cavalry than they're for infantry.

Perhaps you missed my point. My point was: kontos was a very long pole weapon that it would be logical to anyone who used it, infantry or cavalry alike, would use it with both hands. And the nature of pike also dictates that anyone who used it, Ostrogoths or Macedonians, would use it in mass formation, as depicted in game. The use of shield is however suspicious, as we simple have no indication that the Ostrogoths would use the same small shoulder-strapped shield as the Macedonians.

If anything, I would only remove the shield and leave them with the two-handed animation. Isn't that the same way pikemen were depicted in Medieval 2?

[AnthoniusII]

Writing about weapons we always forget History itself!
I explain..Emperor Maurice (Maurikios) re- equiped his infantrymen with the 3m Kontarion...
Because "lance" was the basic spear of Romans and it had only 2m legth...
Kontos was the name of cavalrymen but it seems that infantry did not used it!
Why? Because stire ups were NOT in use untill 6th century and Kontos was a baboo made long spear. That made it light enough to be carried by horsemen but useless for infantrymen!
Maurice was a "soldier" so he may knew something better that us that we write about eras close to his trying to convince our selves and others that we know more for those people than they did!
Conclusion! The basic infantry "spear" was only 2m long. No pikes or other such imaginary and fantasy weapons! What will be next from pikes , light swords???
Pikes -in the shape of kontarion makron- had to wait untill middle of 10th century to re-apear! In west europe pikes had to wait early 16th century to be used again!!

[RGA]

Why? Because stire ups were NOT in use untill 6th century and Kontos was a baboo made long spear. That made it light enough to be carried by horsemen but useless for infantrymen!

Aside from the fact that bamboo did not live in any significant number in Ancient Europe, test of reenactors proved that stirrup-less Macedonian sarissaphoroi could safely use infantry's sarissa on horse back with one hand, providing that it was balanced correctly.

I could accept the argument that the terms lance, pike and spear were used interchangeably in ancient texts, thus causing confusion. But IMHO, pike was not a sofisticated weapon and there is no reason not to believe that the Ostrogoth could use them effectively if they wanted.

[AnthoniusII]

Aside from the fact that bamboo did not live in any significant number in Ancient Europe, test of reenactors proved that stirrup-less Macedonian sarissaphoroi could safely use infantry's sarissa on horse back with one hand, providing that it was balanced correctly.

I could accept the argument that the terms lance, pike and spear were used interchangeably in ancient texts, thus causing confusion. But IMHO, pike was not a sofisticated weapon and there is no reason not to believe that the Ostrogoth could use them effectively if they wanted.

You are talking about Sarrisophoroi but you forget that those horsemen and their weapons/tactiks were long gone extinged!
Again...If there was a wooden (baboo shafts are mentioned by 5th century scholars) 4.5 long spear available for ingantrymen then why a great soldier the Emperor Maurice ordered the re-equipe of his infantry men with a 3 m spear? Was he a fool and we are the smart ones?
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https://deadliestblogpage.files.word...rian.jpg?w=900
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You need more??

[RGA]

For the very simple reason that longer spear does not automatically mean certain victory over shorter one. The Ottoman empire did not adopt pike when coming face to face with European pike-and-shot formation, for some good reasons.

And can you provide the text which mentioned bamboo shaft of cavalry lance? I'm intrigued

[iceteazz]

_ To use a pike in a big formation, soldiers need to be trained hard and frequently, while regular Ottoman infantry couldn't, except some cavalry units and royal guards ( jannisary ? ) I think that's why Ottoman knows pike block are good, but they aren't capable to use them well ( look at Scots at Flodden 1513 ) So, just use some anti pike block like more guns, more missile units to break them and charge in melee, it's more suitable for them :3

_ Same problem with Attila era : pikemen had to be better quality than levy troops ( which were regular armies in that era ) so not many tribe, empire, country, kingdom can adopt pike in large number, even no pike at all.

[Eien]

I didn't know bamboo was extensively used in Europe, always thought it was more of an East Asian thing.

[AnthoniusII]

I didn't know bamboo was extensively used in Europe, always thought it was more of an East Asian thing.

Yes it was...Baboo was just one of the trade materials between Chinese and Indian states with the Roman Empire! Exept the Silk Road there was the Road of Gold (naval trade rout between the Roman Egypt and west coasts of India). India had no gold resourses andimported gold from the Roman Empire exporting Baboo, spices, cloths etc!
I will try to find the text that uses the greek name of baboo (kalamos/καλαμος) that meens reed in greek.