Colonies & Empires: The Original WIP Thread

[Frunk]

Great, I hope for some nice pics!

Of the mod, or me sunbathing?

[Aneirin]

Both of course!

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

This is a rare example of mod about America that don't died. Check:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...s-campaign-mod

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Also this:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8completed!%29

[Frunk]

Thanks b0gia. I downloaded both of those a while back. War for the Colonies is similar to mine in the fact it brings England, France and Portugal into the Americas campaign. Age of Discovery meanwhile, includes the "Incas" and "Caribbeans", but both of these are just the Mayans and Apache renamed, respectively. Both great works, but neither has anything I can really borrow from unfortunately.

[Frunk]

Both of course!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As promised...

Well rested now after touring the South Pacific for 8 days, but to be honest, I'm happier now I can resume work in earnest!

[DonCornholium]

I'll just leave this here )

[Frunk]

Here's the latest preview. The Peruvian Altiplano has been a real challenge, as it's a difficult landscape to represent in-game, without it looking either boring, or ugly. So I've had to sacrifice geographical accuracy in favour of design and gameplay. I think the result is okay. I'm happy with it, and I think that this will make for a cool "home" for the Incas.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Miguel_80]

Great work! This map promises. It's looking very well

[Frunk]

Your ongoing support is fantastic, Miguel.

I've taken a short break from mapping, because I find that doing it for long periods is a bit draining, and this affects the quality of my work. So, in the mean time I've gotten my religions and cultures working (with some help from Gigantus) and have also been trying my hand at some banner making. These very basic first attempts of mine utilise _capper_'s templates. I don't know if I'll end up using these or not - mostly I just wanted to try something different and have been pleased to find that these aren't very difficult to create. Let me know what you think.



EDIT: And, one more...

[Miguel_80]

The four shields are very well made! I was very surprised the coat of arms of pirates, is also a great idea include them as faction. Good job!

[UchihaMadara21]

Looking great so far. The "Altiplano" looks really nice, and actually pretty much like what is seen from aerial view.

Will the pirates be an actual faction? That's cool...

[Frunk]

Thanks Uchicha, I was aiming for some resemblance to the aerial view, so I'm glad that you like it.

Yes, I want to include the pirates. They will be loosely based off the historical Brethren of the Coast (and that's what they'll be called in-game).

[Iskar]

Ah, I recently got so bored that I tried a replay of the Americas campaign, but unfortunately, after a few turns of massacring the indigenous peoples with muskets and cavalry while steamrolling the English and French colonies with cheap indian mercenaries, things got rather boring. The setup of this looks much more interesting and promises to bring about some actually challenging colonial warfare.

This is probably for the far future, but once you get to designing unit rosters and the like, it would be awesome to see a balance between natives and colonists that goes beyond the simple "numbers vs technology" dichotomy.

[Dydw i ddim yn Gymraeg]

Hello,
I like the progress of the mod. It always seemed like the Americas mod was missing attention. So many of the native units were re-skinned or re-named without any attention to the differences in each of the cultures. I also didn't like the lack of naval units for native factions (there are records of Mayan boats that reached 90 feet in length; Columbus' largest ship was around 72 feet long [although I must concede that the Spanish ships had multiple decks]. However, when we see that the Danish faction's longboat is listed as a recruitable unit, it made me wonder whether the Mayan should also have their large yachts in the game). The Mayans especially were noted seafarers (see this article: http://www.history.com/news/research...re-of-the-maya ).

I think that this is the only New World mod that is currently active. I'd just like to point out that with the massive growth of the internet, it's a lot easier to get into contact with experts and historians who could help you on any small questions on the setting of the mod. Might I suggest reddit's askhistorians page or reddit's Indiancountry page? I don't know whether it'd interest you, but it would be cool to see if there are any native nahuatl (or other native "New World" language) speakers out there to help with the names for faction structures/units/misc.

[Dydw i ddim yn Gymraeg]

Sorry about the double post, but I just found this article that might interest you. It gives the name of a possible Mayan city. http://peopleofonefire.com/tag/mayas

Again, sorry about my ramblings. I understand that you are the ones putting the work into the mod, so I don't want to make it seem like I'm putting in a bunch of requests or "I want to see this!" commands. I just want to call attention to some resources that could help you, if you so choose. I humbly bow down to your authority

Cheers, and good luck!

[Frunk]

I'm not Welsh either, but I tell people I am. (I have Welsh great grandparents )

That's a good suggestion about Reddit and the like. Language is a bit of a tricky one. Total war seems to often go with the English translation of many place names. In vanilla Americas, they even use Spanish names for pre-Columbian cities, which is really stupid. I've taken all those out, and wherever possible and appropriate, native language is used (admittedly with some transliterations where unavoidable). For example, if a rebel city was controlled by the Zapotec, it has its Zapotec name, not its Nahuatl name, even if the Aztecs previously held it, or came to hold it later. The Aztecs will not be the Aztecs, either, they will the the Mexica, which was the dominant tribe of the Triple Alliance. Tarascans will be Purepecha. I'm not entirely sure what I'll call the Chichimecs yet. Zacatecatl, perhaps, but that is Nahuatl. I've renamed their capital Zacatecas (Spanish name, used by CA) to Zacatlan (Nahuatl).

I do know vanilla Americas scripted in name changes for some settlements when they were captured by Europeans, for example. I'm not sure whether or not I'll bother with that, as there are so many possibilities and the player can just as easily renamed cities himself. Many European names will be kept, even though they don't match the tentative start date of 1510ish. Jamestown will still be called Jamestown, even though King James VI wasn't even born yet. The player can change it to Henrytown if he so desires, or name a newly conquered city such a name (that's what I often did/do if I play the vanilla campaign and sail to the New World).

As for the Maya, the way they are represented by CA is a joke, to be blunt. They seem to totally misunderstand or disregard the different Maya periods. I believe almost every "city" they gave them was from the Classic period or even earlier, and thus they had been abandoned and irrelevant by the time the Spanish arrived, and more often than not they were given contemporaneous names which were certainly not used at the time. (Altun Ha? Please! ) You won't find Chichen Itza in this mod, either. In the course of my initial research I removed all the "dead" cities and replaced them with relevant, inhabited Post-Classic cities. I could tell you a few names if you like but I'm trying not to spoil the surprise.

I am also considering splitting the Maya into two factions, because there were literally dozens of rival sects that warred and vyed for power for centuries. To represent them as the unified state like CA did would be just wrong, even in an un-historical mod like mine. I've identified the Kiche Maya of the Guatemalan highlands and the Itza Maya, who ended up in the central Yucatan, as two of the major players around the time of the arrival of the Spanish. If this wasn't such a large scale mod I could certainly add even more Maya factions, but then I'd be entering dangerous territory as a modder. I have extremely realistic expectations of what I can achieve, and doing justice to historical accuracy is not one of them, hence this mod. That said, there will be still be some improvements on CA's pretty poor attempt. Native navies are a part of that. They all seem to have had boats of some description and thus they will feature in the game. They might even be able to take on the Europeans, if only in VERY large numbers...

The dream is that once Colonies & Empires "Version 1" is finished, work on "Version 2" will begin, which could well be an historically accurate mod using the ahistorical Version 1 as a base. That could be something I do with the help of a team (it definitely won't be something I do or even attempt on my own), it could be something done by people without my input, or it could be a submod, but I am keen for this work of mine to go as far and be as useful as it can.

[Vladyvid]

The little shields look neat, well done, but maybe, just maybe, you would consider to use a different shape for COAs icons? I mean there will be many native american factions right? They would look slightly better with round or maybe oval COAs? Just a thought. And yeah, its easy to make those regardless what shape. Anyways I also wanted to add that back in the days of Medieval I (yes Im that old) I was involved in a precolumbian south-center american mod (which was never finished) so I would really like for you to release this one. Maybe you would consider a pre-columbian campaign as an addition sometime in the future? There were some really interesting civilizations/factions, especially in south america, before the conquistadores came.

[UchihaMadara21]

I'm not Welsh either, but I tell people I am. (I have Welsh great grandparents )

That's a good suggestion about Reddit and the like. Language is a bit of a tricky one. Total war seems to often go with the English translation of many place names. In vanilla Americas, they even use Spanish names for pre-Columbian cities, which is really stupid. I've taken all those out, and wherever possible and appropriate, native language is used (admittedly with some transliterations where unavoidable). For example, if a rebel city was controlled by the Zapotec, it has its Zapotec name, not its Nahuatl name, even if the Aztecs previously held it, or came to hold it later. The Aztecs will not be the Aztecs, either, they will the the Mexica, which was the dominant tribe of the Triple Alliance. Tarascans will be Purepecha. I'm not entirely sure what I'll call the Chichimecs yet. Zacatecatl, perhaps, but that is Nahuatl. I've renamed their capital Zacatecas (Spanish name, used by CA) to Zacatlan (Nahuatl).

I do know vanilla Americas scripted in name changes for some settlements when they were captured by Europeans, for example. I'm not sure whether or not I'll bother with that, as there are so many possibilities and the player can just as easily renamed cities himself. Many European names will be kept, even though they don't match the tentative start date of 1510ish. Jamestown will still be called Jamestown, even though King James VI wasn't even born yet. The player can change it to Henrytown if he so desires, or name a newly conquered city such a name (that's what I often did/do if I play the vanilla campaign and sail to the New World).

As for the Maya, the way they are represented by CA is a joke, to be blunt. They seem to totally misunderstand or disregard the different Maya periods. I believe almost every "city" they gave them was from the Classic period or even earlier, and thus they had been abandoned and irrelevant by the time the Spanish arrived, and more often than not they were given contemporaneous names which were certainly not used at the time. (Altun Ha? Please! ) You won't find Chichen Itza in this mod, either. In the course of my initial research I removed all the "dead" cities and replaced them with relevant, inhabited Post-Classic cities. I could tell you a few names if you like but I'm trying not to spoil the surprise.

I am also considering splitting the Maya into two factions, because there were literally dozens of rival sects that warred and vyed for power for centuries. To represent them as the unified state like CA did would be just wrong, even in an un-historical mod like mine. I've identified the Kiche Maya of the Guatemalan highlands and the Itza Maya, who ended up in the central Yucatan, as two of the major players around the time of the arrival of the Spanish. If this wasn't such a large scale mod I could certainly add even more Maya factions, but then I'd be entering dangerous territory as a modder. I have extremely realistic expectations of what I can achieve, and doing justice to historical accuracy is not one of them, hence this mod. That said, there will be still be some improvements on CA's pretty poor attempt. Native navies are a part of that. They all seem to have had boats of some description and thus they will feature in the game. They might even be able to take on the Europeans, if only in VERY large numbers...

The dream is that once Colonies & Empires "Version 1" is finished, work on "Version 2" will begin, which could well be an historically accurate mod using the ahistorical Version 1 as a base. That could be something I do with the help of a team (it definitely won't be something I do or even attempt on my own), it could be something done by people without my input, or it could be a submod, but I am keen for this work of mine to go as far and be as useful as it can.

I really like the concept here. You are one of the few people in this forum who actually understand the issue about the 'names". In the case of the Purépechas of northern Mexico, the title of Tarascos/Tarascans is considered very offensive. I can't believe how CA didn't paid attention to this; it's almost like they just searched it up on Google and used the first name they've found.

About the Chichimecah, the main issue is that this title is not concise. Many historians believe that it was the Mexica and other peoples who called them that way because of their pratices and culture. The word Chichimecatl (singular) has a variety of possible meanings, but the most accepted are "Inhabitant of Chichiman" (The Land of the Milk) and "One Who drinks Milk". For uncertain reasons, this term was often used to describe nomadic, hunter-gatherer people considered "uncivilized" or "barbarian". The point is that there were many ethnic groups called Chichimecah, and the Otomitl/Otomí and Zacatecatl/Zacatecos, who lived in central Mexico, were the main ones. Here's a map regarding the most prominent Chichimeca groups inhabiting the valley at that time (although it's from 1550, the situation was basically the same in Pre-Conquest periods):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So, my idea is that instead of a single playable faction, you could make the regions of Zacatecatl and Otomitl as heavily garrisoned "rebel" villages/towns with the title of Altepetl (which means city-state, town, village, etc) followed by the name of the local communities. For example, the hypothetical hometown of the Zacatecos could be called Altepetl Zacatlan.

Armies of these ethnic groups should be recruitable at the entire region of Central Mexico (including at territories of the Mexica, Tlaxcalans and even Spanish), as Area of Recruitment units and mercenaries. Historically, the main advantage of the Chichimecas, Purépechas and Tlaxcalans over the Mexica were their expert use of the bow. It's registered that the army of Mexica emperor Axayacatl was completely destroyed only by a number of archers hired by the Purépecha Empire, who kept firing on their enemies from the walls of their capital, finishing the battle with a ferocious charge. Judging by that, it shouldn't be easy to conquer these "rebel" Chichimeca settlements, since the garrison armies would be filled with skilled archers who were also formidable hand-to-hand combatants (a real unique trait). The same logic would be applied to the Purepechas and the Tlaxcalans.

Also, it would be interesting to point out that important cities in the New World (Mexico and the Andes, for the most part) had flags or emblems representing the local aristocracy, their families or even the symbolism/etimology of the city itself. The Lordship of Tlaxcala/Tlahtoloyan Tlaxcallan (this is how Tlaxcala as a faction should be called in-game - there wasn't a City-State named Tlaxcala, it was a province), a "confederation" formed by the lords of Ocotelolco, Quiahuiztlan, Tepeticpac and Tizatlan, had four distinct flags representing each city/lord. The Triple Alliance, composed by Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan, also followed the same system.

Mods like Stainless Steel have a script that automatically gives the title of "Duke" (a trait/retinue which offer unique advantages) to family members governing a certain settlement. Something like that would fit the political organization of the New World in a very convincing manner. I have most of the desings of these emblems stored in my computer as a resource for old projects.

[Frunk]

The little shields look neat, well done, but maybe, just maybe, you would consider to use a different shape for COAs icons? I mean there will be many native american factions right? They would look slightly better with round or maybe oval COAs? Just a thought. And yeah, its easy to make those regardless what shape.

I know what you mean. I've thought a bit about it as well.

I feel that the vanilla-style shields are a quintessential factor of the "feel" of the vanilla game. The vanilla game is what inspired this mod above all else, so keeping them is kind of a small tribute to that.

Another point is that the concept or heraldry didn't exist in the Americas in the same way it did in Europe, so whatever shape I choose isn't going to suit anybody. The reason I kind of like the vanilla-style shields is that this mod is essentially about an enormous, simultaneous invasion of the New World, by the Old World. Yes, Native Americans would absolutely never "use" shields like these ones, but my point is that the Europeans forced their culture onto the Americans, and the shields are "symbolic" of that (if you'll humour my reasoning ).

Don't get me wrong, though, I would definitely consider changing them, especially if someone with greater skills than my own came on board.

I was going to keep these under wraps for a while, but tell me what you honestly think of these - my very first attempts at Inca and Muisca shields.

Anyways I also wanted to add that back in the days of Medieval I (yes Im that old) I was involved in a precolumbian south-center american mod (which was never finished) so I would really like for you to release this one. Maybe you would consider a pre-columbian campaign as an addition sometime in the future? There were some really interesting civilizations/factions, especially in south america, before the conquistadores came.

Absolutely. Like I alluded to in my previous post, I would like Colonies & Empires to become a base upon which other, more historical mods are created. A pre-Columbian mod would surely be a massive undertaking, and I'm not sure how much I would be able to contribute to it myself, but it would certainly be an awesome achievement by whomever makes it, as it has never been done before to my knowledge. Not as a mod, or even in another game series, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of research would be required, and a lot of imagination too, to fill-in the many gaps in history.

Such a game would not have vanilla-style shields, too.

snip

Yes, I too found it absurd that they named them the Tarascans when I found out it is a derogative! It took me 10 minutes of reading about the "Tarascans" to learn that wasn't even their name! Whoever the historical researcher for the Americas campaign was ought to be fired.

I understand what you're getting at with the city-state concept, and it is a good idea. I still intend to include the "Chichimeca", or more likely, the Zacatecos, in-game. The fact that we don't know what they called themselves is unfortunate, but if worse-comes-to-worse the Nahuatl name will suffice. It won't be so easier for them to dominate their neighbouring tribes. I do lack some information as to place names and locations to the east of Zacatlan and north of the Valley of Mexico. If you have any information on that I would greatly appreciate it!

I like the ancillary idea for city emblems as well. When the time comes I'll speak with you further on them.