Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 152

Thread: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Mar 07 Update)

  1. #41

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I did as you guy suggested and used MMM. The game started and the changes were pretty significant to be noticed in a battle or two.
    I encountered a little nuisance pretty fast tho:

    In a 1v1 scenario, the roman general (praetorians) against a troop of oathsworn will lose pretty fast, and despite being placed into a shield wall formation they seem to keep a pretty loose formation while fighting. That is all that I've noticed so far in the few custom battles I fought in. Just wanted to notify you that the mod is working.

  2. #42

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I love the mod but I just noticed that it seems that my infantry do not have formations anymore.
    Is this by design?

  3. #43

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Formation attack was removed from the game; for good, no unit have it anymore. The reasons are:

    1)
    I dont think formation attack is reasonable, as it is robotic and unnatural. Units can start the battle formed and hold formation for some time, but sooner or later it will get some disorder, doesn't matter how hard they try to keep the formation, as it don't depends on the unit alone but on how hard the enemy pushes too. Also, the players should take some responsability over it: if you want to reform a line, you will need to do it by order (and deal with the consequences); maybe that way you find some use for testudo.

    2)
    Disciplined units have a proper tighter spacing and high mass already, and so the unit will take more time to get disordered; just compare romans with barbarians.

    3)
    (MAIN REASON) Formation attack messes with other formations, causing glitches that throw/teleport units to very strange places (to the middle of the enemy lines or far away from the battle on a random position, even to the rear of both allied and enemy units). You can't notice it unless you take a closer look.

    4)
    (less important, but sweet) Matched combat causes almost no glitches without formation attack, so you can watch some epic moves.

    At real battles (bigger then 1v1) you will see that units keep the line, just not all that symmetric (and artificial) as before. You will also notice better unit behavior (player and AI), as out of formation the soldiers in a unit can act as individuals, reacting to the enemy near to them; you don't see all the unit rotating over its center when the enemy moves (as you would normally see).
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 02, 2015 at 01:24 PM.

  4. #44

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    So, RTW2 vanilla silly blobbing is back... No offense but you're just making this exactly like vanilla is overall and used to be in some bad aspects... I don't see the point of making a submod just for that.

  5. #45

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    You can have your opinion (even if you don't know much about what you are talking if you don't even tryed the mod yet), but as BDR is just a collection of personal tweaks shared with people who want to use it, and you don't bring us much with your empty criticism, I will keep mine. You don't need to use BDR.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 02, 2015 at 02:18 PM.

  6. #46

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    ATTENTION: The crash caused by BDR without Mitch's Mod Manager was solved (it was about the pack file name). I have uploaded a new (renamed) pack file, both for Steam and Non-Steam versions. Please subscribe to (or download) the new one (links at opening post). Apologies for the inconvenient.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 02, 2015 at 03:35 PM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Perhaps you would consider a version with working formations, and a version without? I haven't played this mod without formations long enough to see a huge difference or whether its an improvement or not, but I think many people would like the option to switch. Please.

  8. #48

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I will consider it, Elin4Lyf, but I really belive in all the arguments I gave you here.

    Meanwhile, I was doing some hard effort at fine tunes for BDR. The most urgent need I have noticed: a good reduction at charge bonuses. Given the lower melee defense and armor (now an addition to Damage Mitigation) we use in BDR, charge became a bit too powerful. Some tests with cheap falxmen (high melee attack, high weapon damage and high charge bonus) against elite units proved it to me. Armor and melee defense need to be a little higher too.

    Another point: phalanx. Average phalanx units were given a hard time for elite units without it, even those with some defensive formation (like shield wall) of its own. And pikes were killing way too much. This is not a BDR issue (even if our changes should made it more pronounced): it's something hard to find the balance regarding phalanx formation. I have done some tweaks at it, but thing is: phalanx should be really effective from the front. I hope its flank/rear weakness compensates it properly now.

    Now a matter I need to discuss with you guys. The current stage we are in BDR (balance and fine tunes) will demand frequent tweaks. And so, frequent updates. I don't know if it's better to give you the tweaks as soon as I have it done or if I should hold some time and accumulate a good amount of changes for each update. It's kind of annoying to have a new update every single day, right? But it's good to have things working better as soon as possible, however. I would like to ask you, BDR users, to have some patience and stick with the Steam version for now, even those who prefer standalone packs. That way you can have BDR always updated without me giving you trouble (and feeling bad for that).

    Deal? Ok, then. BDR updated.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 03, 2015 at 11:57 AM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Darn it, just yesterday i uninstalled Rome II to get a little break until Attila comes. But now i wan't to test this -.-. Big sigh... if only my SSD would be 40gb bigger hahaha

  10. #50

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Installed the mod using steam and it appears to be working fine now. No more crashes or bugs.

    Regarding the formations thing, while I see your point, having no formations is also pretty annoying.

    While they can teleport around with formations enabled, having none results in soldiers just spreading randomly around the battle, with individuals ending up in the middle of your army fighting 1v1 as they would at the front (with your guys just watching or ignoring him or just waving their swords around), or 2 or 3 guys from one army pushing 10 enemies out of their way just because the target they chose to fight is in the middle of the other army. These things kind of break immersion quite a bit in my humble opinion.

    Another problem is that this mod skews game balance. I simply cannot win in a 1v1 with a roman praetorian against oathsworns with this mod enabled (as opposed to normal DEI where roman praetorians end up winning). Is it because of the romans no longer have a formation or is it because of the unit stamina I do not know (battles being faster [think of it as time compression], if stamina is the same romans will have to fight against non-exhausted oathsworns for longer).

    Still, the mod looks promising so far. Keep up the good work!

  11. #51

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I will try something with formation attack before I give you guys an answer. Hold on.

  12. #52

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Original DEI
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Oathsworn_vs_Praetorians.png 
Views:	50 
Size:	410.5 KB 
ID:	320682

    DEI + BDR
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Oathsworn_vs_Praetorians_BDR.png 
Views:	49 
Size:	425.1 KB 
ID:	320683

    As you can see, Oathsworn is better then Praetorians in almost every aspect, both at original DEI and BDR. With Shield Wall enabled (both have it), as it act as a multiplier over melee defense, the differences became even bigger (because Oathsworn have higher melee defense). Oathsworn are more expensive too, even If I think Praetorians other abilities, that give them big advantages in certain situations (like Testudo), should make them cost more. In a direct 1v1 confrontation, thou, there is no reason for Praetorians to win that match. I am glad you confirmed they don't.

    You need to stop to think that romans are all mighty. They are overall powerfull and versatile, but some units from another factions CAN BE individualy stronger then its roman conterpart. Oathsworn are better then Praetorians, for example, as you can see at unit stats and confirmed in game. I don't change any DeI balance, because all changes I made are global, affect all units. If I cut melee defense to 1/2, it will be done for both Oathsworn and Praetorians, for example.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 03, 2015 at 04:30 PM.

  13. #53

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I think the reason praetorian where winning before and not now is due to how weapon deadliness works. I may be wrong but I think I recall reading that deadliness is pays off in the long term of battle and not so much in the beginning. As barbarians are meant to be super good in the initial contact, and the Roman discipline is meant to carry they day if they hold long enough, this is no longer achieved as battles are over much faster.

  14. #54

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Deadliness is just ap damage (deadliness 1 means 1 ap damage). So, yes: in original DeI that 1 ap makes the difference. Reasons: 1) battles are way longer in original DeI, so we have plenty of time for that assured 1 damage every hit to accumulate and became huge; 2) original DeI uses high armor values with low damages, so our friend barbarian with no ap damage has to make a roll against a huge armor every hit (with damage 22 vs 70 armor, for example, the game rolls 0-70 and subtracts the result from 22; easy to see that most of the time the roll will be higher then 22 and, so, completely negate the damage). That system makes a better and more expensive unit lose to a worst one. That's wrong. BDR have made it right.

    Last tweaks have made melee defense and armor even lower, so we can compare attack vs defense and damage vs mitigation to have a better idea of what to expect from a given match. Unit stats became simple and understandable, not just meaningless numbers used at some tricky math to archive game balance. Sorry guys: I am an engineer, every system must be reasonable and every number must make sense for me.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 04, 2015 at 02:09 AM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I never thought the romans were almighty, just noticed a difference in gameplay.
    Thanks for the explanation btw as I've always wondered why those praetorians were able to win against oathsworns despite having worse stats.

    I haven't tested your mod all that much, just a custom battle here and there. Will try to return with more feedback when I have the time.

  16. #56

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I will appreciate your feedback, Pric.

  17. #57

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Ok, guys, important information: Formation Attack is back! I managed to isolate the problem: it was related to a line at kv_rules called melee_secondary_attack_probability. A former good mod (No More Heart Attacks) put melee_secondary_attack_probability = 0 for great benefit: no more animation of men dying without being touched by a weapon (the invisible secondary attack). I borrow the idea for BDR, but it causes the teleportation glitches I mentioned with Formation Attack enabled; the hard part was to discover that it was the source of the glitches. Well... now I know! Problem solved, and you guys can have your Formation Attack back. Enjoy it!

  18. #58
    Civis
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    more losses for victory
    victory al a Pyrus
    not good

  19. #59
    Senator
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Tulifurdum
    Posts
    1,317

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Although I appreciate all the efforts to make AI more dangerous in battles I see a problem with the moral system. What we get is faster battles with butcher mechanic and extreme losses. That's so unhistorical that I have problems to enjoy the higher difficulty. Units break way to late. Of course if they broke earlier it would be seemingly a little bit the return of the vanilla system.

  20. #60

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I am using your mod in my grand campaign. It' good until now.

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •