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Thread: About rebels

  1. #1
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default About rebels

    I did some tests today about the way Rebels work.
    I set up new tables for the Royalist French, and Britanny, and then used a script to generate rebels, with different strength, in different French region.
    Here are the results of the tests:
    - The rebel army could possibly get a "limited" unit in any number (for example it can have 10 grenadiers of the guard, even if is limited to 2 units globally)
    - The rebel army cannot get a unit which is not available in a region
    - There is no clear logic about the quality of the units vs the size of the rebel army. For example, an army size 10 can have only militia, size 12 has only guard unit, and size 14 has mostly light infantry, except one line infantry
    - Usually, there is a proportion of cavalry / artillery / infantry, but beside this, there is no clear pattern.

    Often, the rebel units are too strong.
    So, unless someone can point me to a table where you can really control the contents of the rebel army, here is what I want to do.
    - I will create special units for the rebels. There will be only one unit of each type (one infantry, one cavalry, one artillery).
    - They will have their own "uniform", based on the normal uniform, but with more variety, no shiny plume, etc, to look more plain.
    - They will have their own, icon, with a black frame, to show they are rebels.
    - They will be weaker than the regular units (like only two guns, 60 cav, 120 infantry), and will probably be slower on the campaign map (so they remain "local rebels"), have less ammunition...

    What do you think of this idea?

  2. #2
    Civis
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Great! ....wonderful ideas! .....especially the own uniforms.....

  3. #3
    roy64's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Give it a try & see how it works.

  4. #4
    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
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    Default Re: About rebels

    unit to population class priorities has previously been implicated (at least for ETW) in rebel unit proportions.

  5. #5
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Do you have details? Because if I look at France, Normandy or Britanny in the startpos, they have all "7" for the different population classes. I'm not sure how it actually works

  6. #6
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    I'd like to get some feedback here about the best way to handle rebels. I can see several possibilities (3 actually).
    First, I will create one new unit for each type of rebel (artillery, cavalry, infantry) for each faction, and this unit will be weaker than the normal units.

    Option 1:
    I use the existing textures and atlas. A unit is made of a mix of different parts (like different belts, coat, hat, pants...). This give rebels which look like a mix of different units from the regular army.

    Option 2:
    I make a few specific rebel textures. I use some basic coats, pants, hats... If possible with some "worn out" texture. I will make some basic variation (darker / lighter), and then a colour mask with the main faction colour. The idea is to have differences between factions, with different colours from faction to faction (like British in red, Russian in green). It will give the impression of a unit with maybe less variation (since I want to use the same textures for several factions), so may be 2-3 hat variation instead of 4-5, but the uniforms will look more worned out. I'd make a few atlases to regroup different faction (ex: Britain, Scotland, Ireland rebels in the same atlas).

    Option 3:
    I make one generic texture for every rebels, with kind of "civilian" clothes.

    So, what option do you prefer? The question behind is, what are rebels?

    "1) Soldiers from different units mixing all together to fight an invader?"
    "2) Soldiers from regular units, with worned out uniforms / equipment refusing to surrender?"
    "3) Civilian taking arms to make a revolution?"

    Since the rebels are IMO most likely to appear after a faction captured a region (and less likely when people become unhappy in a starting region), I think 3) is not really the most common case, and 1 or 2 are more likely.

  7. #7
    Civis
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Dear Steph ,

    I would say option 2 ! ......seems most realistic , not ?

    Maks

  8. #8
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    That's also my preference, but Sirlion for example things differently.

    There is also a different approach. Beside "what would be the historical profile of a rebel that could be used", there is also the question of gameplay.

    First, we should avoid using specialized type, such as "guard grenadier". Because the way the engine selects units to be in a rebellion is not very clear, there is the risk to have a rebel army of 10 Guard grenadiers, even if the unit is normally limited to 1!

    So if we consider we can have only one type of rebel infantry:
    - It cannot be too weak (like citizens), or rebels are virtually useless and too easy to defeat.
    - It cannot be too strong or rebels are really annoying.

    So we need a special rebel units, which is something in between citizens and line infantry IMO, or maybe between militia and line infantry.

    If going that route, I don't think they should be "citizens like". We can imagine citizens rushing to defend the city as a last resort, but personnally I don't think there will be such a mix of citizens to rebel in the country side, except maybe in Spain. I think the rebels would try to organize a little and have a semblance of uniforms. Especially after a region has just been invaded, we could imagine the rebels have a backbone or former soldiers.

    So that's why I think a rebel unit like a weak line or strong militia (but maybe in fewer numbers) is the best approach. And so a kind of uniform would make sense.

    Anyway, I will start by creating these rebel units, for gameplay first, so probably with uniforms close to the one for the militia of each faction, because I don't want to postpone the release too much, then let testers play with them, so we can adapt the stats/strength of the rebels until they feel fight in the campaign. And later I could replace these temporary uniforms by specific ones, based on one of the option above. By then we'll know if gameplay wise they are closer to civilians or closer to uniformed soldiers.

  9. #9
    Civis
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Hi steph,

    how is the final version going besides this rebel update ? ......any fine new on the horizon soon ?

    maks

  10. #10

    Default Re: About rebels

    Rebels are a bunch of fancy dudes with ridiculously tall and rounded hats. They probably drink a lot, and have a taste for mustaches. They would pretty much look like this:




  11. #11
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Sorry, but we don't have this kind of glass in the weapon meshes.

    And I will NOT make rebels with this ridiculous helmet


  12. #12
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by maks View Post
    Hi steph,

    how is the final version going besides this rebel update ? ......any fine new on the horizon soon ?

    maks
    Final? Several months before a final version! The next release will include Spain and Portugal, plus these rebels and a working campaign.
    Then we'll have at least a Netherland/Belgium and an Ottoman update, plus a German states improved version

  13. #13
    Civis
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    Default Re: About rebels

    @steph , sorry , i meant how is the next release going? .....is it close to being released?

  14. #14
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    I'm waiting for a few voices from Treva the Renewer for Iberia, then we just have the rebels to add to make the campaign playable (except for Netherlands and Ottomans, they will come in a second version), and then some general ironing and tweaking.

  15. #15

    Default Re: About rebels

    Is it possible to create seperate styles of rebellions for the different causes of rebellions?
    Lower class revolts create more low-quality units with mostly slow cavalry and poorly trained infantry.
    The middle and upper class revolts would have more tattered uniforms and mixed units, but they would be smaller in number.

  16. #16
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to control that. I've tried using a script to create rebellion, but it doesn't tell what type of rebellion is generated.
    I could may be make some small variations of rebels (like "line rebels", "citizen rebels", "light rebels"). But instead of making a mix of the units, rebels are often all of the same type, so it gives strange results

  17. #17

    Default Re: About rebels

    I quite like the idea of getting rebel units with a mix of uniforms, White coats with British tricorns, horrible colour co-ordination to what would probably be a nightmare for the people designing their clothes.

  18. #18
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Additional testing:
    1) rebels do not take into account disabled units. So it is not possible to have uniforms varying with the period...
    2) I tried changing the priority from the "Unit_class_to_population". And give 10 to light infantry for every population, and 1 to every other class. And yet, I get militia...

    So instead of wasting time trying to understand how CA managed their rebellion, and risking to get unwanted rebel armies, I will make it simple.
    Rebel will only have one infantry, one cavalry, and one artillery type. At least I'm sure I won't get surprise with that!

  19. #19

    Default Re: About rebels

    At this point I'm sure CA didnt even care honestly. It seems they just hardcoded a function to select random units and spawn them with a lot of exp. I'm not surprised at all given the fact that pretty much all their answers to the Ntw\Etw modding questions were "No sorry cant do"

  20. #20
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: About rebels

    Now the rebels have their own units. So even if the AI give them too much XP, we could after playtest and feedback adjust the stats, until we have rebels that are fun to play (not too easy, not to hard).
    DB initial setup done, I now have to make better variants for the rebels.

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