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Thread: BC 2.4 The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

  1. #61

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    btw sir, xiao wolila is definitely not a kara-khitan name, neither yanshan.....that's like calling a turkish guy john smith

  2. #62

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    I could provide a list of classic central asian names if you need it..

  3. #63

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by aynur_uyghur View Post
    btw sir, xiao wolila is definitely not a kara-khitan name, neither yanshan.....that's like calling a turkish guy john smith

    Definitely not kara-khitan? You are wrong.
    You should beware when you write things. Read this please.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-K...-Khitan_Empire

    I think you have messed Qarakhanids and Karakhitans.

    Quote Originally Posted by aynur_uyghur
    I could provide a list of classic central asian names if you need it..
    It is ok, but don't forget that you should provide medieval uigur name, not muslim turkic name of the 19th century. Medieval Turkic muslim names are already well provided btw.
    Last edited by Byzantineboy; July 12, 2015 at 02:47 PM.

  4. #64

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantineboy View Post
    Definitely not kara-khitan? You are wrong.
    You should beware when you write things. Read this please.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-K...-Khitan_Empire

    I think you have messed Qarakhanids and Karakhitans.



    It is ok, but don't forget that you should provide medieval uigur name, not muslim turkic name of the 19th century. Medieval Turkic muslim names are already well provided btw.
    I've read it already, and it still sounds strange cause it doesn't fit them, the reason why there's chinese names in that WIKI page is obviously because of the only surviving historical records about the empire come from outside sources. The empire took on trappings of a Chinese state, so Chinese historians generally refer to the empire as theWestern Liao Dynasty I can't find their original names at the moment but I'm pretty sure those aren't since khitans were of mongolic speaking and there's no way they would call themselves like that, those historians generally chineseise those names due to lack of vowels, such as alexander = anlushan...

  5. #65

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Interesting point of view but you will agree that Alexander never ruled on China, but during more than two centuries Khitans did.

  6. #66

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    The Khitan is not Turkish,they have Chinesized during Liao dynasty,and before Liao Dynasty,they lived in Northeast of China,speaking a language that maybe similar to Mongolian.The Khitan only have two surname:Yelv and Xiao

  7. #67

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    There are more Bactrian camel in central Asia,I've read some books said that Western Xia dynasty used Bactrian camel in battle,maybe we can add Bactrian camel in game

  8. #68

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantineboy View Post
    Interesting point of view but you will agree that Alexander never ruled on China, but during more than two centuries Khitans did.
    An Lushan, the rebelious general during Tang. Some theories support Sogdian descent, borrowing the name Alexander, sinicized as An Lushan.

    ---

    Mongolic Khitan names were surely sinicized. For example, Yelü Abaoji, the founder of Liao, was probably named Ambagyan in khitan.
    Last edited by Yayattasa; July 15, 2015 at 10:05 PM.


  9. #69
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    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Looks very nice!

    By the way, Khitan Elite Macemen units are using the steel shield texture from Mount and Blade Warband, right:

    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  10. #70

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    I just got back from bishkek and kashgar! i would love to play as the Uyghurs!

  11. #71

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    First time posting in this mod. I would first like to start off with how much I love this mod, great work guys. It's probably too late for me to add tidbits on the historic evidence for the Kara Khitai, but I'll give it a shot. I hope you guys won't mind if I point out inaccuracies, if I am wrong feel free to tell me about where you got the info.

    Let's start off with the only picture I know of that displays Liao cavalry:



    Here's a clearer version of the same picture:



    The context of the picture is of Goturks submitting to the Tang, but the picture was drawn during the early Song. Like Renaissance painters, Chinese painters of the time would draw armor like that of the painter's time period, as opposed to the armor of the painting's actual setting. Or at the least, the painter drew what the Liao cavalry stereotype looked like. I think the heavy cavalry units for the Liao in this mod is based off of the Osprey painting of Liao armor. Osprey justified its depiction by saying: "The famous Wen Ch'i scoll depicts a party of these 'barbarians' [Khitan ordo cavalryman] in the act of looting a Chinese house. It is thought that the scroll is based on an original of the Sung period, and that the models for the figures were Khitan warriors. This man has removed his helmet, showing the soft cap worn underneath. He carries a mace as prescribed in the Liao Shih and illustrated in tomb paintings. Also carried were bows, spears, and halberds. Jurchen, and even Mongol heavy cavalry, would have looked very similar."

    Here is the Wen Ch'i scroll:



    So perhaps the regular Kara Khitai heavy cavalry in the mod would be left as is (except the solely melee heavy cavalry probably shouldn't have a quiver, and the horse armor would be black), but the general unit should be based off of the Song painting?

    Also, I highly doubt the Zhuge crossbow would be a part of regular Kara Khitai equipment. There is not much mention of Liao equipment in the records, but considering how every dynasty which had plenty of records on their military equipment only used regular crossbows for the most part, as opposed to repeating crossbows, it's a safe bet that the Liao didn't use repeating crossbows (and the repeating crossbow of 9AP is really overpowered). There is some evidence the Liao used regular Chinese crossbows though, and perhaps they brought some of them West as the Kara Khitai.

    Qianlong, which admittedly is very well after the time period in consideration, made this poem:

    During the Chunhua era,(990-94), a “northern” tour occurred here
    Observing strong crossbow archers of the “Iron Forest Army”
    Were they [the Song and/or the Khitan Liao] aware that latter generations would gradually weaken?
    The Five Dynasties tears of loneliness and mourning form the northern clouds.


    He wrote this poem when he himself was making a "northern tour" of his army, and this poem was probably Qianlong reflection of if his own dynasty would one day decline and become extinct. Note that Qianlong's armies relied on the Manchu bow or matchlock gun, Manchu cavalry very very rarely the crossbow if ever, so it would be weird for him to talk about the "Iron Forest Army" of the Liao as using crossbows unless he honestly believed that's what the Liao army used. The Liao heavy cavalry was coined the term "Iron Forest" since the Song dynasty.

    The History of Song also said "观铁林军人射强弩", which translates as "The Iron Forest army uses strong crossbows". The keyword here is "strong", because the Zhuge crossbow was NOT strong, not even relative to crossbows for cavalry. Its draw weight is weak, and its powerstroke is short. There are no physical properties of the Zhuge Nu that would allow it to have a powerful shot, unless if it was one of those field-artillery gigantic Zhugenus. From the late Ming encyclopedia Tiangong Kaiwu:

    Zhuge Crossbow, it has a straight magazine on top containing over 10 bolts, its wings is made up of the softest wood. With a separate wooden mechanism, it quickly loads and looses. Though intricate, its power is weak, so its range is merely 20 paces. This is used by civilian against bandits, not a weapon of the armed forces.

    In fact, I'm not sure if any crossbow of any state in the game would be justified in having an armor piercing values. Crossbows in the west had short powerstrokes, and its draw strength in absence of cranking mechanisms of later periods would reduce it to about 300-400 lbs. The short powerstroke combined with the shape of the prod as opposed to the recurved/reflexed composite hand bows, the shooting power would be equivalent to a 100-150 lb bow. The crossbows of the Qara Khitai wouldn't suffer from a short powerstroke (if they had crossbows), but being used on horseback with only a foot stirrup to help in drawing, its draw weight would probably be brought down to about 180 lbs. Due to the long powerstroke, this would be equivalent to roughly a 150 lb bow.
    Not much is known about Liao infantry, but as a general rule East Asian armies tend to wield their spears two-handed. This meant it wouldn't allow a shield, but it did allow longer reach as you could now use two hands to grasp a longer spear, plus they grasped it at the very back of the shaft. So they were more tercio/pikemen type as opposed to shield wall type spearmen. Perhaps the Liao were an exception to this rule, as said there's not much info on their infantry. Or perhaps as the Kara Khitai they would adopt local military styles such as spearmen with shields.
    Last edited by HackneyedScribe; August 19, 2016 at 11:38 AM.

  12. #72

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    A question: I'm playing with the Qara Khitai and I found out that the Uyghur Camel Lancers and Skirmisher aren't present in the recruitment pool (for both castle and city).
    Have they been removed?

  13. #73

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by sohei33 View Post
    A question: I'm playing with the Qara Khitai and I found out that the Uyghur Camel Lancers and Skirmisher aren't present in the recruitment pool (for both castle and city).
    Have they been removed?
    No, no, I am pretty sure they are: have you checked with silk road buildings?

  14. #74

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Yes I'm sure, I've checked every building... the Uyghur Cavalry is described as being Horse and Camels then later as armored camel but without having the coreesponding ability "scare horse"...

  15. #75

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by sohei33 View Post
    Yes I'm sure, I've checked every building... the Uyghur Cavalry is described as being Horse and Camels then later as armored camel but without having the coreesponding ability "scare horse"...
    In the units_text I could find two instances that could fit your description. Their dictionary names are "Khitan_Cavalry" (screen name: "Uyghur Lancers"), and "Khitan_Camel_Cavalry" (screen name: "Uyghur Cavalry").

    Khitan_Cavalry has wip status (no finished descriptive text), so I doubt that this unit is available right now. It does not appear in the EDB. Khitan_Camel_Cavalry appears in the EDB (you can check for yourself, just remember that you need to search for its unit id, not the dictionary tag. You can arrive at the unit ID in most cases by replacing the underscores with blanks. For instance Khitan_Camel_Cavalry unit id is Khitan Camel Cavalry.) in the Stables line of buildings. It should be available at second building level.

    Did you check at one of your home provinces?

  16. #76

    Default Re: [Preview. BC 2.4]The Kara-Khitan Khaganate

    Yes I've checked but this unit doesn't appear, I only got the Uyghur Cavalry.

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