Socci extraordinary upgrade to Evocati germanica

**Reisdal** · January 22, 2015, 05:32 AM

As the title says, the former upgrades to Evocati Germanica during Imperial Reforms. Is this right?

**Llieutenant** · January 22, 2015, 07:07 AM

Yes it is. I just upgraded mine today Allthough I don't like that most of them have longer swords

**Reisdal** · January 22, 2015, 07:31 AM

I just feel that the upgrade from lowlifes to veterans from germanicum is a bit strange...

**zombieflanders** · January 22, 2015, 08:21 AM

Lowlifes? The extraordinarii were elite soldiers picked from the allied forces. You could make the argument that it's odd that they upgrade from that to what was generally a bodyguard-style unit (although I would largely disagree), but they certainly weren't scrubs.

**Reisdal** · January 22, 2015, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by zombieflanders

Lowlifes? The extraordinarii were elite soldiers picked from the allied forces. You could make the argument that it's odd that they upgrade from that to what was generally a bodyguard-style unit (although I would largely disagree), but they certainly weren't scrubs.

hmm okay. but it's still strange

**Goffredo85** · January 23, 2015, 08:39 AM

Legionarii socii extraordinarii are a bit misleading. Their name implies that they are heavy infantry drafted from non citzens italians after marian reforms, yet their description presents them as propertyless volunteers armed by the state. If you watch closely most of them wear out of date equipment and several do not wear any armour at all...

**MagicCuboid** · January 23, 2015, 12:10 PM

Hm, to rub out any confusion about who the Legionarii socii extraordinarii were:

"[Praefecti sociorum] first of all select for the consuls for the whole force of allies assembled the horsemen and footmen most fitted for actual service, these being known as extraordinarii, that is "select."" - Polybius, The Histories VI.

So, to start, they were used at least as early as the Polybian system as elite allied cohorts. Polybius later remarks that they were typically marched in the vanguard or in the rear of columns when the army was on the move, which reflects well on their fighting ability. The units aren't supposed to be poor fighters at all, but given their ad-hoc nature, they are likely to be equipped less uniformly than the Roman Triarii.

EDIT: I was wrong! Wasn't aware of Marian era socii extraordinarii, so I assumed Polybian era.

**Goffredo85** · January 23, 2015, 02:02 PM

Your description refers to polybian era socii extroaordinarii. Those are well represented by two units in DEI: pedites extraordinarii and equites extraordinarii. The unit in question here, legionarii socii extraordinarii are a marian unit. The first thing to be misleading is their name as "legionaries" was used to refer only to roman citizens (as in having actual roman citizenship) and not allied non-citizens soldiers. That being said their stats and name implies that they are what remains of the old italian allied contingents now deprived of their cavalry component as that role was now fullfilled by other people (numidian, celts, iberians just to name a few). Yet their description and appearence implies that they are just propertyless volunteers. So they are indeed misleading. In any of the two interpretations they should not be upgradable in an evocata germanica as it makes no sense. If they are indeed socii they should just become simple legionaries once granted roman citizenship in imperial times, if they are truly propertyless volunteers...well weren't all legionaries basically poor volunteers by imperial times?

**Augustusng** · January 23, 2015, 03:56 PM

Well, that unit is Marian, not imperial. They represent the "capite censi" units I think. Then again, I don't think they ever formed whole units historically. Could be wrong though. Would a better unit name be "Legionarii Voluntarii," "Legionarii Capite Censi," or something like that?

Of course, in that case it is indeed strange that they upgrade into Germanic veterans. That should definitely be changed.

**KAM 2150** · January 23, 2015, 04:48 PM

Yeah, they should have been renamed Capite Censi, but we forgot about it ; P

**Don_Diego** · January 23, 2015, 05:36 PM

Yeah the marian ones are supposed to be capite censi, they need a name change. With the germanic veterans I really dislike this unit and think it should be removed. It doesn't properly work as a veteran legion unit that has served in germania, that is better shown as normal evocati. I think this unit should just be removed, better AOR legion units are in the historic legions submod. A single unit recruited across the map and called "Germanica" is not very realistic.

**Goffredo85** · January 23, 2015, 06:04 PM

@Augustusng: you're probably right about whole units made up of capite censi.
@Don_Diego: i totally agree with you about the evocata germanica.

**Ivan_Moscavich** · January 23, 2015, 06:24 PM

I'm more curious as to why pedites extrodinarii upgrades to simple volunteer legionnaires. It's a huge downgrade. Heck, even the principes and socii princpes are kind of a downgrade, though that's understandable as everyone was now in the group instead of principes and hastate being two different things.

Wouldn't it make more sense for pedites extrodinarii to upgrade to veteran legionnaires like the trarii do?

**Don_Diego** · January 24, 2015, 04:43 AM

@Ivan, yeah it would make more sense that way, maybe it can be done for a future update.

**MagicCuboid** · January 24, 2015, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Goffredo85

Your description refers to polybian era socii extroaordinarii. Those are well represented by two units in DEI: pedites extraordinarii and equites extraordinarii. The unit in question here, legionarii socii extraordinarii are a marian unit. The first thing to be misleading is their name as "legionaries" was used to refer only to roman citizens (as in having actual roman citizenship) and not allied non-citizens soldiers. That being said their stats and name implies that they are what remains of the old italian allied contingents now deprived of their cavalry component as that role was now fullfilled by other people (numidian, celts, iberians just to name a few). Yet their description and appearence implies that they are just propertyless volunteers. So they are indeed misleading. In any of the two interpretations they should not be upgradable in an evocata germanica as it makes no sense. If they are indeed socii they should just become simple legionaries once granted roman citizenship in imperial times, if they are truly propertyless volunteers...well weren't all legionaries basically poor volunteers by imperial times?

Oh, of course you're right! Sorry for the misinformation everyone

. I'll edit the original post with a disclaimer.

**Goffredo85** · January 24, 2015, 08:59 AM

Well it was not such a big issue after all, just a wrong name...i think that we all can live with that. DEI has so much new units that keeping track of all must really be a nightmare for the devs!