[Obsolete EDU Testing] Updated EDU with all the "unofficial" fixes integrated and many other changes

[QuintusSertorius]

Aren't the differences, engine-wise, between RTW and M2TW relatively small? Hopefully that means whatever they did back in RTW might still be accessible, somehow, in M2TW.

[wudang_clown]

Aren't the differences, engine-wise, between RTW and M2TW relatively small? Hopefully that means whatever they did back in RTW might still be accessible, somehow, in M2TW.

If the differences are hardcoded in both games' exe files, then there is nothing we can do to make M2TW to behave like RTW in certain aspects.

[Leeroy9000]

Well, now they dont drop spears, so the phalanx somehow works. The only problem is that it looks crappy.

I tested the previous edu, with secondary weapons, and noticed that if you press backspace as soon as phalanx enters "fighting" mode, they will enter "bracing" mode instead, holding spears and poking at the enemy, i.e. working as intended.
Is it possible to write a script that does this automatically for both player and AI?

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, now they dont drop spears, so the phalanx somehow works. The only problem is that it looks crappy.

I tested the previous edu, with secondary weapons, and noticed that if you press backspace as soon as phalanx enters "fighting" mode, they will enter "bracing" mode instead, holding spears and poking at the enemy, i.e. working as intended.
Is it possible to write a script that does this automatically for both player and AI?

Could you go into a bit more detail about what you've observed, and which units do that?

[Dago Red]

Backspace? Is that a battle function key which alters unit behavior that I've been unaware of all these years..?

[HaHawk]

Backspace? Is that a battle function key which alters unit behavior that I've been unaware of all these years..?

Backspace is the hotkey for "halt". So if you order a pike unit to "halt" upon contact with an enemy, as mentioned above, the pike unit will stop marching and go into "brace mode" (because of their distance to the enemy).

At least this is what I understand the post by Leeroy9000 to mean. Unfortunately I have not yet played with any pike units in EBII myself since I am busy with my Sweboz campaign

[Leeroy9000]

Backspace is the hotkey for "halt". So if you order a pike unit to "halt" upon contact with an enemy, as mentioned above, the pike unit will stop marching and go into "brace mode" (because of their distance to the enemy).

At least this is what I understand the post by Leeroy9000 to mean. Unfortunately I have not yet played with any pike units in EBII myself since I am busy with my Sweboz campaign

Yes, that's pretty much how it works

[Leeroy9000]

Could you go into a bit more detail about what you've observed, and which units do that?

Phalangitai, their mercenary version, and egyptian phalangitai, in other words all 3 units with phalanx mode and secondary weapon.
They all behave in the same way, but Phalangitai are the best of the three, probably because of their higher mass and attack value.
If you order them to stop as soon as they make contact with the enemy (marching changes to fighting), they will no longer drop pikes, and beat the crap out of the enemy at the front. Even if some occasional enemy slips through guys from the 2nd row may switch to swords and try to kill him, but there will always be a row of pikes poking at the enemy, and keeping them at distance.
At the flanks phalangites most of the time will not respond to attacks, and hold spears. Some will switch to swords to fight back, but frequently they will revert back to pikes, and get back into the main group, if the flanking enemy is killed, of attacks another phalangite.

The other two types of units are , and will barely hold enemy at the distance, though there will still be a row of pikes poking at it.

Also, in prolonged fights (2 min+) the phalanx will, for some reason, enter fihgting mode on its own, and will advance at the enemy, without switching to swords. It you then order it to stpo, it will, derp, rising all pikes and doing nothing, instead of going into "bracing" mode again. The good thing is that enemy is mostly dead at that point.

[QuintusSertorius]

Phalangitai, their mercenary version, and egyptian phalangitai, in other words all 3 units with phalanx mode and secondary weapon.
They all behave in the same way, but Phalangitai are the best of the three, probably because of their higher mass and attack value.
If you order them to stop as soon as they make contact with the enemy (marching changes to fighting), they will no longer drop pikes, and beat the crap out of the enemy at the front. Even if some occasional enemy slips through guys from the 2nd row may switch to swords and try to kill him, but there will always be a row of pikes poking at the enemy, and keeping them at distance.
At the flanks phalangites most of the time will not respond to attacks, and hold spears. Some will switch to swords to fight back, but frequently they will revert back to pikes, and get back into the main group, if the flanking enemy is killed, of attacks another phalangite.

The other two types of units are , and will barely hold enemy at the distance, though there will still be a row of pikes poking at it.

Also, in prolonged fights (2 min+) the phalanx will, for some reason, enter fihgting mode on its own, and will advance at the enemy, without switching to swords. It you then order it to stpo, it will, derp, rising all pikes and doing nothing, instead of going into "bracing" mode again. The good thing is that enemy is mostly dead at that point.

Which EDU are you using?

I ask because in the current one on the first page (less than a week old), no phalanx unit has a secondary weapon any more. So there should be no switching to swords at all. Phalangitai and Misthophoroi Phalangitai are now identical, stat-wise.

[Leeroy9000]

Which EDU are you using?

previously in the same thread

...I tested the previous edu, with secondary weapons...

[Dago Red]

previously in the same thread

How much testing did you do, roughly? Three units -- Hellenistic Phalangitai (standard), Misthophoroi Phalangitai (mercs, which always have better attack due to increased experience), and Machimoi Phalangitai (keep in mind there are also Machimoi infantry who even though they are depicted with swords in the unit card and say they have swords in the description, on the field they have long spears -needs fixing) -- and you watched each of them multiple times using this timed bracing?

Because if what you say holds true for unit behavior this is really promising. I don't know how easy it would be to generate a script to alter unit behavior so precisely though.

[QuintusSertorius]

previously in the same thread

Sorry, teach me to post quickly while at work.

How much testing did you do, roughly? Three units -- Hellenistic Phalangitai (standard), Misthophoroi Phalangitai (mercs, which always have better attack due to increased experience), and Machimoi Phalangitai (keep in mind there are also Machimoi infantry who even though they are depicted with swords in the unit card and say they have swords in the description, on the field they have long spears -needs fixing) -- and you watched each of them multiple times using this timed bracing?

Because if what you say holds true for unit behavior this is really promising. I don't know how easy it would be to generate a script to alter unit behavior so precisely though.

The only meaningful changes from that previous one to this one are:

• Standardisation of mass - all phalangites are now 1.7 or 1.9 for the better-armoured "professional" phalangites (Phalangitai and Misthophoroi Phalangitai)
• Standardisation of attack value - all now have an attack value of 3 (2 for Machimoi, and will be for Deuteroi when they're implemented; 5 for elites) and charge value of 5
• Standardisation of formation - all now use 0.93, 1.13, 1.86, 2.03 for their spacing
• A delay of 75/10ths of a second between attacks
• Removal of the short_spear attribute in favour of spear

So I'd be interested to see if that bracing is still going on. I certainly saw them doing that in the battles I've been testing recently.

[Leeroy9000]

How much testing did you do, roughly? Three units -- Hellenistic Phalangitai (standard), Misthophoroi Phalangitai (mercs, which always have better attack due to increased experience), and Machimoi Phalangitai (keep in mind there are also Machimoi infantry who even though they are depicted with swords in the unit card and say they have swords in the description, on the field they have long spears -needs fixing) -- and you watched each of them multiple times using this timed bracing?

Because if what you say holds true for unit behavior this is really promising. I don't know how easy it would be to generate a script to alter unit behavior so precisely though.

Tested 20+ times with phalangitai, and a couple of times with others, and they always did the same thing.
But the scenario was the same: 1 v 1 units at Gaza Coastline, and units attacked each other head on, since i can't control AI, so there were no flanking with 2 units and other factors that are present in the actual battle. I usually chosen triarii or Liby-Phoenician hoplites for the enemy, and they have good charge, and are strong fighters in general, so it probably explains why merc and egypt phalanx sucked so hard.
I also noticed that the more f'd up the formation is when you order "stop", the more likely they will derp. So if you make a phalanx to make a 180 degrees turn a moment before enemy charges at it, and then order it to stop, it will transform into a giant mosh pit.
Btw, mercenary phalangitai have 2 attack, compared to 16 of the "true" ones, in the old EDU.

But more importantly, we need someone who knows something about scripts in this game

[QuintusSertorius]

Does anyone have observations on the latest EDU (no more secondary weapons and standardisation of stats for phalanxes) they'd like to share?

[Dago Red]

I'll add I haven't had much time to play, or test (and wont' have any at all for at least another 10 days). Couple things:

1. Elephant generals are nerfed (this is probably not your EDU), and seriously bugged where the general is often the first to die. IN general they are almost impossible to kill with any unit, even when they're routing, from spearmen, heavy infantry, mounted or not, doesn't matter -- but drop like they're made of paper from a javelin attack. Same with chariots. The general concept is right, but it's too extreme.

2. Cavalry charge seems less cohesive than from a few releases ago (hard to keep track, either than or I'm using them more and noticing its still an issue). Often times 2 or 3 lead horse make an impact while the rest of the unit stands still. They can be ineffective at long distance with a single click order, or at the double click.

3. What's with archers getting bonus to fighting cavalry? Haven't been able to exlore the effects but it seems highly contradictory. Also noticed some lancers have had the bonus removed (though there are historical reasons to support lancers having an advantage over other cavalry, so that seemed logical in the first place).

Phalanx are much improved (though would love to find a way to make swords functional).

[QuintusSertorius]

I'll add I haven't had much time to play, or test (and wont' have any at all for at least another 10 days). Couple things:

1. Elephant generals are nerfed (this is probably not your EDU), and seriously bugged where the general is often the first to die. IN general they are almost impossible to kill with any unit, even when they're routing, from spearmen, heavy infantry, mounted or not, doesn't matter -- but drop like they're made of paper from a javelin attack. Same with chariots. The general concept is right, but it's too extreme.

I haven't done much to elephant generals, beyond shrinking the unit and changing the mount_effect a little. What is different is that all javelineers now universally have a mount_effect of elephant +6, where some had no modifier, or even a penalty before, and it wasn't consistent. So perhaps the +6 is too high.

2. Cavalry charge seems less cohesive than from a few releases ago (hard to keep track, either than or I'm using them more and noticing its still an issue). Often times 2 or 3 lead horse make an impact while the rest of the unit stands still. They can be ineffective at long distance with a single click order, or at the double click.

The only change to cavalry is a standardisation - lancers are now all +10 attack and +21 charge, not-lancers +8 attack and +11 charge. So not sure what might be causing that. Lighter cavalry have a smaller movement increase from 2.01 as well, though I don't imagine speed impacts cohesion.

3. What's with archers getting bonus to fighting cavalry? Haven't been able to exlore the effects but it seems highly contradictory. Also noticed some lancers have had the bonus removed (though there are historical reasons to support lancers having an advantage over other cavalry, so that seemed logical in the first place).

I'll check on archers.

On cavalry, no melee cavalry get bonuses against other cavalry at present. That was another standardisation thing, again I'll check the reasoning.

Phalanx are much improved (though would love to find a way to make swords functional).

You and me both.

[QuintusSertorius]

Elephants, lancers and archers are being reviewed. The primary change on elephants, now the units are smaller, is that the javelineer bonus will be reduced from +6.

The reason for the bonus archers get is that it's supposed to represent horses being a bigger target for arrows. However, I think the unintended consequence of that is that archers are good at fighting cavalry in melee. We're looking into an alternative way to do this.

[Goffredo85]

Are you sure that missile weapons can benefit from bonus vs cavarly? As far as i know only melee weapons can...

[QuintusSertorius]

Are you sure that missile weapons can benefit from bonus vs cavarly? As far as i know only melee weapons can...

I don't know, to be honest. Do you have confirmation of that from anywhere?

[Goffredo85]

As far as i remember you can get "bonus vs cavarly" in two ways: 1) the "spear_bonus_x" which, in my personal experience, does only work if coupled with the "light_spear" or "spear" attribute and thus it should not work for missile weapons. 2) the mount effect which works for every kind of attack a unit makes against a particular type of mount or a generic class, like "horses", "camels", "elephants" etc. So in this case it will work for missile weapons as well as melee ones.
Of course all of this just comes from my very limited experience modding med2 edu several years ago.