Why is the Irish not in this one??

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Why is the land of saints and scholars the land that would go on to re-educate Europe not in this one.

Hibernia as the Rome's and Greeks called my island are going in to there golden age and play huge part in the British isles. Moving fast in to Scotland, raiding Britain Roman's, Welsh, and the Anglo-Saxons.
with the Gaelic moving in to Pictland it forces the Picts down to the British who go on to get mercenaries out of the Saxon's.
Trade with the Franks is huge and the Book of Kells show that trade most be going as far as Afghanistan, this goes to show a very outward people,unlike the first Rome.
it 395AD When Attila is set the Romans write “When the Scots put all Ireland in motion (against the Romans), then over heaps of Scots the Icy Ierne wept”. In other words many Irish were killed when they attacked the Romans in Britain. This goes to show that the people of the last race of Gauls were looking to push on top of the Romans, maybe to liberty the tribes of the old or take it for them self. Am getting at this, because this is a great part in Irish History but is being left out by total war I feel.Unlike the Vikings who have a DLC right away although they don't have there Golden age until 793 AD.But just like Conor McGregor having his next fight in Las Vegas and not Ireland. it's all down to money I say thats why this DLC is out first.

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[Highlander of Scotland]

i think the Irish should be in the game although the main issue CA would have is how to portray them. They are neither utter barbarians or utterly civilised

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Well no one start's the game with all there Technology tree done, but I find the Gaelic become very civilised in my view.

[Hazzard]

The Irish never were especially relevant to the Romans or Attila, who are the main focus of the game. And you say yourself "many Irish were killed" implying to me that the fighting age men of Ireland were mostly killed, making future conquest near impossible. There's a reason the common language of the Island is English, a Germanic language and not a Celtic one.

Not to mention Ireland hardly saved Europe, Christianity was hardly dead in Europe even after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.
And this "great part of Irish history" is as poorly documented as anything in this time period, we have about the same knowledge of Ireland as we do King Arthur, so you might as well call for a King Arthur DLC history wise.

And put simply, Ireland is a small island off a small island off the edge of Europe, insulated greatly from the events on the continent at the time.

[PhilipO'Hayda]

The Irish never were especially relevant to the Romans or Attila, who are the main focus of the game.

There not very Relevant to Attila, I can agree with you there. But relationship with Ireland and Rome kicks off with trade with Eblana from the time of the Gallic war in 58-50BC this can be seen with Roman Coins and jewellery being found in Newgrange so I can agree to why Hibernia playing a small part in Rome 2.
However in the time of Attila in 396AD when the game starts. Ireland is both pushing in to Scotland and the Roman world. And aldo this is a failed early attack in 396AD this still shows the Irish as a treat both at the time and (should be) in the game.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And you say yourself "many Irish were killed" implying to me that the fighting age men of Ireland were mostly killed, making future conquest near impossible.

Many is not all, and implying is not fact. If your implying that many is all, then by saying many were killed in the Sacking of Rome in 390BC you would not have a Rome Empire and we would be all speaking Gaelic. Cobthach Cóel Breg is High king of Ireland at the time and that man would have had an army ready for anyone looking to take his title off him

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son of Úgaine Mor, was, according to medieval Irish legend and historical tradition, a High King of Ireland. He took power after murdering his brotherLóegaire Lorc. The story is told that he was so consumed with jealousy for his brother that he wasted away to almost nothing, from which he gained his epithet Cóel Breg, the "meagre of Brega". Acting on advice from a druid, he sent word to that he was ill, so that Lóegaire would visit him. When he arrived, he pretended to be dead. As he lay on his bier, Lóegaire prostrated himself over his body in grief, and Cobthach stabbed him with a dagger. He paid someone to poison Lóegaire's son, Ailill Áine, and forced Ailill's sonLabraid to eat part of his father's and grandfather's hearts, and a mouse, and forced him into exile – according to one version, because it had been said that Labraid was the most hospitable man in Ireland.Cobthach later made peace with Labraid, now known by the epithet Loingsech, "the exile", and gave him the province of Leinster, but relations broke down again and war broke out between them, and Labraid burned Cobthach and his followers to death in an iron house at Dind Ríg. He had ruled for either fifty or thirty years. The Lebor Gabála gives fifty, and dates his death to Christmas Eve, 307 BC. It also synchronises his reign with that of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (281–246 BC). The chronology of Keating's Foras Feasa ar Éirinn dates his reign to 409–379 BC,that of the Annals of the Four Masters to 592–542 BC.
and this was taken from the Book of Leinster now being kepted in Trinity College

The There's a reason the common language of the Island is English, a Germanic language and not a Celtic one. .

Well that there is other can of warms, but if were putting it in here it would be down to the fall of Celtic Christianity and the rise of Roman Christianity. Once again showing that the Irish play a role in Saxon and Europe History. Because there is a power struggle political game being played which is what Total War is all about.

Not to mention Ireland hardly saved Europe, Christianity was hardly dead in Europe even after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. .

So the rise of pagan Vikings,Saxons and Picts who convicted them ?? And the re-education of the Franks who did all that?? It may have been Byzantium money but it was the Irish that got in there.

And this "great part of Irish history" is as poorly documented as anything in this time period, we have about the same knowledge of Ireland as we do King Arthur, so you might as well call for a King Arthur DLC history wise. .

Once again with the fall of Rome Ireland is not dropped down to the level as everyone else and still has written History am sure you know of the book of kells. I would agree that with a lot of History books burned by the English from endless fighting. There is many holes in Golden age Ireland. But unlike King Arthur we have many archaeology digs that can find the stuff to back it up with.

And put simply, Ireland is a small island off a small island off the edge of Europe, insulated greatly from the events on the continent at the time.

Well it is lucky so that the Romans came so far to see us, to do trade and have us giving a helping hand as we push them out the door. It maybe called Attila Total War, but it is a Grand Campaign and since more and more in to the Dark Age Hibernia plays here part should that a Irish faction not be put in to the game, even more so going in to the Dark age were Trade ports play a huge part

[Himster]

.......It's racism bro.
We're not called the blacks of Europe for no reason.

But seriously: Ireland was small, relatively underpopulated and very difficult to unite. It's simply not possible to accurately represent the situation in Ireland on the Atilla map. If the maps were moddable, we could have a mod with a smaller map and that might work, but until then........

[PhilipO'Hayda]

If they put the Iceni in it, they can put that hand cutting Uí Néill factions in to it,We have high kings so were more united then other groups in total war. ok so it's not fully true till 1014, and the game may be over by then. but I have hope and think it's the right thing for total war to do.

and saying that Himster I would full on love to see a Hibernia war for the High kingship mod.

[Sebidee]

Don't see any reason not to put them in, land of saint and scholars and all that! The dark ages never got to us we were that good

[Caligula's_Horse]

Ireland just wasn't particularly relevant on the world stage during the period.
Underdeveloped, underpopulated and disunited, the Irish really don't have a place in the game as anything other then a minor faction or two. There are already enough factions not implemented in the game due to technical and practical limitations, many of them more influential in the time period then Ireland.

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Would you like to comment on anything I said Caligula or you just saying what Hazzard said and that's Ireland is a hole, I only need it read the heading to know that, so you Philip.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Would you like to comment on anything I said Caligula or you just saying what Hazzard said and that's Ireland is a hole, I only need it read the heading to know that, so you Philip.

Let me have another, more focused crack at it then.
Yes, it was a pivotal time in Irish history, I'll give you that. The Irish of the period however, were not a pivotal part of world history. I'm not saying Ireland is a hole, I'm saying that at the time it was a hole, if you insist on using that terminology. Sure, they traded, raided and some of them sold themselves as mercenaries, but their impact during the period was limited to pretty much the British isles; this makes putting the spotlight on Ireland a poor choice, seeing that the game covers an area from the Atlantic coast to the doorstep of India.
Rome II's Iceni felt silly in much the same way. Historically, they were just another tribe among many, that never really accomplished much. Which sort of broke willing suspension of disbelief when their in-game accomplishments, under the AI no less, routinely involve conquering half of Gaul...

Your patriotism doesn't change the fact that Ireland becoming a significant player in world affairs is relatively speaking, a new development. I have nothing against Ireland or the Irish; my interest lies in the game's historical accuracy within the practical limitations on the number of regions and factions.
Now, if they release a "king Arthur" DLC or some such, focusing more o the British isles, I'd welcome more detailed Irish factions. But that's not the scenario we're discussing.

[PhilipO'Hayda]

am only joking about you just calling Ireland . I would love to see a DLC just on the British isles moving in to the Dark age, as war on religion with the Celtic,Roman Christianity and pagan faiths are tested, the war's on the many races of the isles and for myself see a united Ireland with a high king, perhaps before 1014. But still am hoping on a Uí Néill DLC, and would much rather see it then a 400 year early Viking one.

[Hresvelgr]

The Picts were more relevant at this time and even they aren't playable (which reminds me, they totally should be playable, free-LC them please, CA). The Irish only really started to have a more significant impact beyond their island just after the period of TW:Attila.

[Linke]

The Irish in the dark ages would be definetely the most influential and prosperous and thriving place in atleast Brittania.
They colonised the rest of the Islands and funded many other colonies, I think they created Brittonic Bretagne and also
the Britton dark age colony in Spain.
The Irish at this time may not have been the most relevant but in a 100 years they would and by that they are more viable than the Vendel and Danish factions. The Golden age of Ireland seems to be very unknown
I don't doubt they will be in a dlc, probably in a Brittish campaign and then they will be playable in main campaign aswell.

[Hresvelgr]

The Irish in the dark ages would be definetely the most influential and prosperous and thriving place in atleast Brittania.
They colonised the rest of the Islands and funded many other colonies, I think they created Brittonic Bretagne and also
the Britton dark age colony in Spain.
The Irish at this time may not have been the most relevant but in a 100 years they would and by that they are more viable than the Vendel and Danish factions. The Golden age of Ireland seems to be very unknown
I don't doubt they will be in a dlc, probably in a Brittish campaign and then they will be playable in main campaign aswell.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. The Irish are Gaelic, not Brythonic. So they couldn't have created Brythonic Bretagne, which the historical record clearly states as being settled by actual Britons, as in the native inhabitants of the island of Britain as opposed to Ireland. And I have never heard of any Celtic settlement in Spain in the Dark Ages at all, whether Gaelic or Briton. At that time Spain was settled by various Germanic tribes, not by Britons or Irish. And the Irish were not the most prosperous people in the British Isles in the Dark Ages either, they just happened to not be having as many foreign invaders as others, partially because they were some of the ones doing all the bloody raiding. St Patrick was a Briton taken captive by the pagan Irish, not the other way around. If there was a Total War game taking place in the "Dark Ages" (really, it's a bit of a silly misnomer made by Rome-fanboys from the medieval age) at least some of the Irish should totally be playable, but don't overstate things. Books like "How the Irish Saved Civilization" are no more truthful and no less biased than the kind of stuff that propagates the idea that the Celts weren't civilized, or that Rome was the center of the world, or other such nonsense, it's just the other end of the spectrum is all. Although now that I think about it that book kinda supports the latter views I mentioned, given how it revolves around the idea of the Christian Germanic peoples who moved west were actually cartoonish barbarians or something.

[Linke]

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. The Irish are Gaelic, not Brythonic. So they couldn't have created Brythonic Bretagne, which the historical record clearly states as being settled by actual Britons, as in the native inhabitants of the island of Britain as opposed to Ireland. And I have never heard of any Celtic settlement in Spain in the Dark Ages at all, whether Gaelic or Briton. At that time Spain was settled by various Germanic tribes, not by Britons or Irish. And the Irish were not the most prosperous people in the British Isles in the Dark Ages either, they just happened to not be having as many foreign invaders as others, partially because they were some of the ones doing all the bloody raiding. St Patrick was a Briton taken captive by the pagan Irish, not the other way around. If there was a Total War game taking place in the "Dark Ages" (really, it's a bit of a silly misnomer made by Rome-fanboys from the medieval age) at least some of the Irish should totally be playable, but don't overstate things. Books like "How the Irish Saved Civilization" are no more truthful and no less biased than the kind of stuff that propagates the idea that the Celts weren't civilized, or that Rome was the center of the world, or other such nonsense, it's just the other end of the spectrum is all. Although now that I think about it that book kinda supports the latter views I mentioned, given how it revolves around the idea of the Christian Germanic peoples who moved west were actually cartoonish barbarians or something.

I seem to have partly confused the Irish with the Brittons, I never claimed Irish saved Civilization, just that they were influential and prosperous. I admit I dont know too much Vut I support them as a playable faction.
http://www.britonia.fsnet.co.uk

[Sebidee]

Well. we were quite prosperous. Ireland had monasteries and was the only place where christianity was able to develop completely free of dark age turmoil. Early christian Ireland was definitely a golden age although maybe a bit later (though only by 100 years).

Maybe it doesn't warrant a playable factions, who cares with mods anyway. But they could at least redo the unplayable faction which is completely wrong. The Ebdani didn't own the island, nor were they even close to being the strongest tribe. Eblana wasn't the capital, that would have been Tara which was the seat of the high kings. Ireland was much more united than any of the other british factions since the high king had at least figurative power over the island.

I would like to see Ireland split into two regions or even a province with two factions sharing the island. That would be nice.

What I would most like though is a Viking Invasion DLC. Then Ireland could have half a dozen regions or even more. Have the Irish, Welsh, Scots, Saxons and Vikings. If you look up the history on that period Ireland was very important and saved England several times since we kept murdering the Viking leaders when they visited Dublin!!

[PhilipO'Hayda]

The Picts were more relevant at this time and even they aren't playable (which reminds me, they totally should be playable, free-LC them please, CA). The Irish only really started to have a more significant impact beyond their island just after the period of TW:Attila.

wouldn't say the Picts are a bigger deal we kind of knocked them about for a good bit, one thing the romans could never do.

This then from my understanding pushed homeless tribes down south to the Britons,who then had to get Saxon's over to deal with the Picts down south. Over time the Picts (and by books by Neil Oliver) become Gaelic, taken on the language and culture.

I seem to have partly confused the Irish with the Brittons, I never claimed Irish saved Civilization, just that they were influential and prosperous. I admit I dont know too much Vut I support them as a playable faction.
http://www.britonia.fsnet.co.uk

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

At this stage the Welsh are not even speaking Gaelic as I know it, that mix Celtic and Roman language, I call welsh.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

it's nails down chalkboard to me. unlike the beautiful Irish language.

this man's view on the France language is my view on Irish [/SPOILER]

What I would most like though is a Viking Invasion DLC. Then Ireland could have half a dozen regions or even more. Have the Irish, Welsh, Scots, Saxons and Vikings. If you look up the history on that period Ireland was very important and saved England several times since we kept murdering the Viking leaders when they visited Dublin!!

a 2nd Last Kingdom's for Rome or Attila would be great to see, even more so when the maker has moved on.So a second is not what I thought I would see.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...e-Last-Kingdom

[Hresvelgr]

Well. we were quite prosperous. Ireland had monasteries and was the only place where christianity was able to develop completely free of dark age turmoil. Early christian Ireland was definitely a golden age although maybe a bit later (though only by 100 years).

Maybe it doesn't warrant a playable factions, who cares with mods anyway. But they could at least redo the unplayable faction which is completely wrong. The Ebdani didn't own the island, nor were they even close to being the strongest tribe. Eblana wasn't the capital, that would have been Tara which was the seat of the high kings. Ireland was much more united than any of the other british factions since the high king had at least figurative power over the island.

I would like to see Ireland split into two regions or even a province with two factions sharing the island. That would be nice.

What I would most like though is a Viking Invasion DLC. Then Ireland could have half a dozen regions or even more. Have the Irish, Welsh, Scots, Saxons and Vikings. If you look up the history on that period Ireland was very important and saved England several times since we kept murdering the Viking leaders when they visited Dublin!!

Ireland wasn't the only place with a high-king, the Picts had a high-king as well who theoretically was in charge of the seven sub-kingdoms of Pictland. In both cases the amount of authority the Irish/Pictish high-kings had probably wavered greatly when present, although the Picts seem to have been capable of moving large armies around pretty often which signifies that their high-kings did often have the power to throw their weight around. That said, the one thing that would be even better than a Viking DLC for Attila would be an Arthurian DLC, since it is closer to the era (late 5th Century-6/7th Centuries) and would allow an even more tightly focused map, with just the British Isles along with Brittany and Normandy. That way, more Irish kingdoms if you want along with plentiful British kingdoms from Armorica to Strathclyde and the Picts sitting menacingly up north.

Although I doubt the Irish kept murdering Viking leaders when they visited Dublin, since Dublin was actually founded by the Norse. AFAIK, the real decisive victory the Irish had over the Norse settlers was at Clontarf under Brian Boru, I think, well into the era.

wouldn't say the Picts are a bigger deal we kind of knocked them about for a good bit, one thing the romans could never do.

This then from my understanding pushed homeless tribes down south to the Britons,who then had to get Saxon's over to deal with the Picts down south. Over time the Picts (and by books by Neil Oliver) become Gaelic, taken on the language and culture.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

At this stage the Welsh are not even speaking Gaelic as I know it, that mix Celtic and Roman language, I call welsh.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

it's nails down chalkboard to me. unlike the beautiful Irish language.

this man's view on the France language is my view on Irish [/SPOILER]

a 2nd Last Kingdom's for Rome or Attila would be great to see, even more so when the maker has moved on.So a second is not what I thought I would see.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...e-Last-Kingdom

The Dal Riatans landed in a part of Pictland and were enough of a nuisance that their leaders intermarried with Pictish kings until the two nations fused to form what is now Scotland, although admittedly they did adopt the Gaelic language. But this was later than you are suggesting, and the Picts weren't being "pushed around" by the Gaels. It just so happened that the Picts and Irish (and Scotti if you consider them distinct) shared a love of raiding Roman Britain and when the Romans ditched the island the Romanized kingdoms were left defenseless and started hiring Saxon foederati or mercenaries as was the typical late Roman custom. Which ended about as poorly as it did for the Romans. And by the time Scotland became Gaelic, the Dark Ages were almost done and it's possible some Pictish customs survived, not that they were likely very different since the various Brythonic and Goidelic peoples had much in common. The Northern Picts seemed to share the Gaels' disinterest in trousers for one thing.

As far as Britons in Gallaecia goes, I found that map you posted on wikipedia, but aside from one paragraph on the wiki with few sources I can't find much about it. And Welsh isn't a mixed Celtic/Romance language, it's just plain Celtic, specifically Brythonic. It might have some Latinate loanwords but so does Irish and just about every European language nowadays. And incidentally the famed linguist/writer JRR Tolkien had the opposite opinion of yours, that Welsh was a beautiful flowing language whereas Gaelic was rather harsh. Hence why the popular elvish language Sindarin was based pretty heavily on Welsh but not Gaelic. I happen to share a similar opinion, for all the fear and horror the English have at the number of consonants used to write Welsh, it's a very nice language to listen to and I'd consider it and Breton as rivals for the title of coolest surviving Celtic language. Although it's probably undeniable that Bretons have the coolest names.

[Sebidee]

Ireland wasn't the only place with a high-king, the Picts had a high-king as well who theoretically was in charge of the seven sub-kingdoms of Pictland. In both cases the amount of authority the Irish/Pictish high-kings had probably wavered greatly when present, although the Picts seem to have been capable of moving large armies around pretty often which signifies that their high-kings did often have the power to throw their weight around. That said, the one thing that would be even better than a Viking DLC for Attila would be an Arthurian DLC, since it is closer to the era (late 5th Century-6/7th Centuries) and would allow an even more tightly focused map, with just the British Isles along with Brittany and Normandy. That way, more Irish kingdoms if you want along with plentiful British kingdoms from Armorica to Strathclyde and the Picts sitting menacingly up north.

Although I doubt the Irish kept murdering Viking leaders when they visited Dublin, since Dublin was actually founded by the Norse. AFAIK, the real decisive victory the Irish had over the Norse settlers was at Clontarf under Brian Boru, I think, well into the era.

Visited is a word generally used to go to somewhere for a short time. The vikings founded Dublin and some of the high ranking leaders split their time between Britain and Ireland. They went to England to conquer and went to Ireland to die. Ivar the Bonelenss and Halfdan Ragnarsson were two of the three leaders of the first Viking invasion of England and before completing their conquest were killed in Ireland, stopping it.

The battle of Clontarf was not the decisive Irish victory, it was the last victory over the vikings when they were finally kicked out of Dublin.