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Thread: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

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    Arto's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    When world leaders, including Prince Charles and the Australian and New Zealand prime ministers, gather at Gallipoli to commemorate the First World War battle at the invitation of the Turkish government in April, the ghosts of one and half million slaughtered Christian Armenians will march with them.
    For in an unprecedented act of diplomatic folly, Turkey is planning to use the 100th anniversary of the Allied attempt to invade Turkey in 1915 to smother memory of its own mass killing of the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire, the 20th century’s first semi-industrial holocaust. The Turks have already sent invitations to 102 nations to attend the Gallipoli anniversary on 24th April — on the very day when Armenia always honours its own genocide victims at the hands of Ottoman Turkey.
    READ MORE: A HISTORY OF WW1: THE TURKISH HOLOCAUST BEGINS
    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HOLOCAUST AND A HOLOCAUST
    THE 1915 ARMENIAN GENOCIDE: FINDING A FIT TESTAMENT TO A TIMELESS CRIME


    In an initiative which he must have known would be rejected, Turkish President Recep Erdogan even invited the Armenian President, Serge Sarkissian, to attend the Gallipoli anniversary after himself receiving an earlier request from President Sarkissian to attend ceremonies marking the Armenian genocide on the same day.

    This is not just diplomatic mischief. The Turks are well aware that the Allied landings at Gallipoli began on 25th April – the day after Armenians mark the start of their genocide, which was ordered by the Turkish government of the time – and that Australia and New Zealand mark Anzac Day on the 25th. Only two years ago, then-president Abdullah Gul of Turkey marked the 98th anniversary of the Great War battle on 18th March 2013 — the day on which the British naval bombardment of the Dardanelles Peninsular began on the instructions of British First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill. At the time, no-one in Turkey suggested that Gallipoli – Canakkale in Turkish — should be remembered on 24th April.
    The Turks, of course, are fearful that 1915 should be remembered as the anniversary of their country’s frightful crimes against humanity committed during the Armenian extermination, in which tens of thousands of men were executed with guns and knives, their womenfolk raped and then starved with their children on death marches into what was then Mesopotamia. The irony of history has now bequeathed these very same killing fields to the victorious forces of the ‘genocidal’ Islamist ISIS army, which has even destroyed the Armenian church commemorating the genocide in the Syrian city of Deir ez-Zour. Armenians chose 24th April to remember their genocide victims because this was the day on which Turkish police rounded up the first Armenian academics, lawyers, doctors, teachers and journalists in Constantinople.
    Like Germany’s right wing and revisionist historians who deny the Jewish Holocaust, Turkey has always refused to accept the Ottoman Turkish Empire’s responsibility for the greatest crime against humanity of the 1914-18 war, a bloodletting which at the time upset even Turkey’s German allies. Armenia’s own 1915 Holocaust – which lasted into 1917 — has been acknowledged by hundreds of international scholars, including many Jewish and Israeli historians, and has since been recognized by many European states. Only Tony Blair’s government tried to diminish the suffering of the Armenians when it refused to regard the outrages as an act of genocide and tried to exclude survivors from commemorating their dead during Holocaust ceremonies in London. Turkey’s claim – that the Armenians were unfortunate victims of the social upheavals of the war – has long been discredited.
    Several brave Turkish scholars – denounced for their honesty by their fellow countrymen – have researched Ottoman documents and proved that instructions were sent out from Constantinople (now Istanbul) to regional officials to destroy their Armenian communities. Professor Ayhan Aktar of Istanbul Bilgi University, for example, has written extensively about the courage of Armenians who themselves fought in uniform for Turkey at Gallipoli, and has publicised the life of Captain Sarkis Torossian, an Armenian officer who was decorated by the Ottoman state for his bravery but whose parents and sister were done to death in the genocide. Professor Aktar was condemned by Turkish army officers and some academics who claimed that Armenians did not even fight on the Turkish side. Turkish generals officially denied – against every proof to the contrary, including Torossian’s photograph in Ottoman uniform — that the Armenian soldier existed. But now Turkey has changed its story. Turkish foreign minister Mevlut Cavusoglu recently acknowledged that other ethnic groups – including many Arabs as well as Armenians – also fought at Gallipoli. “We [Turks and Armenians] fought together at Gallipoli,” he said. “That’s why we have extended the invitation to President Sarkissian as well.” The Armenian president’s reply to Erdogan’s invitation even mentioned Captain Torossian – although he sadly claimed that the soldier was also killed in the genocide when he in fact died in New York in 1954 after writing his memoirs – and reminded the Turkish president that “peace and friendship must first be hinged on the courage to confront one’s own past, historical justice and universal memory… Each of us has a duty to transmit the real story to future generations and prevent the repetition of crimes… and prepare the ground for rapprochement and future cooperation between peoples, especially neighbouring peoples.”Armenians hold their commemorations on April 24th – when nothing happened at Gallipoli – because this was the day on which the Armenian intellectuals were rounded up and jailed in the basement of Constantinople’s police headquarters prior to their deportation and — in some cases — execution. These were the first ‘martyrs’ of the Armenian genocide. By another cruel twist of history, the place of their incarceration is now the Museum of Islamic Arts – a tourist location to which Prince Charles and other dignitaries will presumably not be taken on 24th April. These killings marked the start of the Armenian people’s persecution and exile to the four corners of the earth.
    Professor Aktar’s contribution – along with that of historian Taner Akcam in the US — to the truth of Turkish-Armenian history is almost unique. They alone, through their academic research and under enormous political pressure to remain silent, forced thousands of Turks to debate the terrible events of 1915. Many Turks have since discovered Armenian grandmothers who were ‘Islamised’ or seized by Turkish militiamen or soldiers when they were young women. Aktar also points out that other Armenian soldiers – a First Lieutenant Surmenian, whose own memoirs were published in Beirut 13 years after Torossian’s death – fought in the Turkish army.
    An image from 1915. Turkey deported two thirds of the Armenian population; many were either killed or died of starvation during the journey











    He has little time, however, for either the Turkish government or Armenian president Sarkissian. “If you want to honour the Armenian officers and soldiers who… died for the fatherland (Turkey) in 1915, then you should invite the Armenian patriarch of Istanbul,” Aktar told me. “Why do (they) invite President Sarkissian? His ancestors were probably fighting in the Russian Imperial Army in 1915. He is from Karabagh [Armenian-held territory that is part of Turkish Azerbaijan] as far as I know! This is a show of an ‘indecent proposal’ towards President Sarkissian… it is rather insulting!”
    Many Armenians might share the same view. For several months, Sarkissian was prepared to sign a treaty with Turkey to open the Armenian-Turkish frontier in return for a mere formal investigation by scholars of the genocide. Then-US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton supported him, along with sundry politicians and some Western journalists based in Turkey. But the Armenian diaspora responded in fury, asking how Jews would feel if friendship with Germany was contingent upon an enquiry to discover if the Jewish Holocaust had ever occurred. In the First World War, American and European newspapers gave massive publicity to the savagery visited upon the Armenians, and the British Foreign Office published a ‘black book’ on the crimes against Armenians of the Turkish army. The very word ‘genocide’ was coined about the Armenian holocaust by Raphael Lemkin, an American lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent. Israelis use the word ‘Shoah’ – ‘Holocaust’ — when they refer to the suffering of the Armenians.

    The Turkish hero of Gallipoli, of course, was Lieutenant Colonel Mustapha Kemal – later Ataturk, founder of the modern Turkish state – and his own 19th Division at Gallipoli was known as the ‘Aleppo Division’ because of the number of Arabs serving in it. Ataturk did not participate in the mass killings of Armenians in 1915, but some of his associates were implicated – which still casts a shadow over the history of the Turkish state. The bloody Allied defeat at Gallipoli was to cast a shadow over the rest of Winston Churchill’s career, a fact well known to the tens of thousands of Australians and New Zealanders who plan to come to the old battlefield this April. How much they will know about an even more horrific anniversary on April 24th is another matter.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...t-9988227.html

    Another swift move of the Turkish government, this process of accepting the Genocide is somewhere far away.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Insecurities about one's past is the greatest obstacle to be overcome, if one trully wants to step boldly into the future.
    Then again we are talking about a country that jails journalists for "subverting" the status cuo.
    Who ever is going to challenge established notions?

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Who ever is going to challenge established notions?
    Challanging established notions actually it's my favorite sport.
    The Armenians' Genocide is a fact.

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Challanging established notions actually it's my favorite sport.
    The Armenians' Genocide is a fact.
    I meant the notions that are established among the Turkish people.
    In a parliamental democracy (whatever the democratic deficit) the government cannot just say that "The Armenians' Genocide is a fact" when all the people believe it isn't.
    Before there is a shift in policy and the attitude of the legislature towards such an issue, the public opinion must first be allowed to shift.
    Othewise any politician attempting such a change will simply be cast out of the country's political scene by the voters themselves.

    My point was that we cannot expect a shift in the Turkish public opinion about the Armenian Holocaust when journalists are being jailed for "smaller" issues.

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    The problem I have when startinrg a conversation about the this topic is that my Turkish friends are bound to use the ASALA-card and the Greater Armenia conspiracy theory. It just disrupts the whole dialogue.

    What surprises me more is that the British Foreign Office had a denialist position until recently. After 100 years, one might think that there should be enough support groups.
    Knowledge is a deadly friend, if no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see, is in the hands of fools - King Crimson's Epitaph.
    תחי מדינת ישראל

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Arto View Post
    ...use the ASALA-card and...
    I am not Turkish, I know that the Armenian Genocide happened and I would like you to explain to me this "ASALA-card thing", I have not encountered this term before.

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Arto View Post
    What surprises me more is that the British Foreign Office had a denialist position until recently. After 100 years, one might think that there should be enough support groups.
    Most of the world is the same, in the sense that they treat the Armenian genocide like an elephant in the room. They won't actively deny it, but they will go out of their way to avoid the topic.

    Its mostly because economic, diplomatic and military ties with Turkey are seen as more important then ties to the less wealthy and less powerful Armenia. Diplomatic hypocrisy at its finest.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    The Turkish government is merely returning the favor in kind to years of propaganda perpetrated by Armenian government and diaspora.

    Not to burst a bubble but this commemoration is not going to be held in this particular date for the first time. The ceremonies have always been held in some day between 23rd and 25th of April.

    The article though seems to be nothing more than an other blind propaganda piece or a completely ignorant one.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    The Turkish government is merely returning the favor in kind to years of propaganda perpetrated by Armenian government and diaspora.

    Not to burst a bubble but this commemoration is not going to be held in this particular date for the first time. The ceremonies have always been held in some day between 23rd and 25th of April.

    The article though seems to be nothing more than an other blind propaganda piece or a completely ignorant one.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    The Armenians' Genocide is a fact.
    So is the fact that relocation is not genocide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    So is the fact that relocation is not genocide.
    I know you're probably just joking around, but international law via the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, Article II, dictates that treating a people/diaspora in a way that would be guaranteed to either decay/destroy that people's identity, culture, lives, etc., counts as genocide. Concentration camps, killing fields, or systematic extermination of any kind are not required at all.

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    I know you're probably just joking around, but international law via the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, Article II, dictates that treating a people/diaspora in a way that would be guaranteed to either decay/destroy that people's identity, culture, lives, etc., counts as genocide. Concentration camps, killing fields, or systematic extermination of any kind are not required at all.
    UN and the law you posted did not exist in 1915, nor did relocation can cause the destruction of a culture/identity.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; January 20, 2015 at 05:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    I know you're probably just joking around, but international law via the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, Article II, dictates that treating a people/diaspora in a way that would be guaranteed to either decay/destroy that people's identity, culture, lives, etc., counts as genocide. Concentration camps, killing fields, or systematic extermination of any kind are not required at all.
    Given that the Armenian culture, race and identity is still well and alive today, even in Turkey, makes that point moot. Even back then about 500 thousand reached their destination. Unless I have the wrong understanding of what the word "guaranteed" means I doubt it applies to what happened back then.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Given that the Armenian culture, race and identity is still well and alive today, even in Turkey, makes that point moot. Even back then about 500 thousand reached their destination. Unless I have the wrong understanding of what the word "guaranteed" means I doubt it applies to what happened back then.
    Yes, exactly, if one Armenian had survived it would still be "not-a-genocide" right?
    But I beleve we have debated that before.
    I could be posting photographs of cospses and you would be saying that they were "isolated incidents" or "faked photographs" or whatever.
    (Really, Setekh, how many "isolated incidents" would you need me to pile up before you admit that together they are forming a bigger picture that only Turks deny?)
    I could be posting quotes from the journal of the American ambassador at the time in Turkey and you would be saying "malevolent propaganda".
    Instead I will say what I said to you before:
    If you have already decided what you want the truth to be then you will disregard all the facts that point to something else.

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    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Declaring war on the British Empire and then percieved the invasion of Gallipoli as something unjust.

    Boo hoo.

    Atleast the CUP more or less "fixed" the war of their own making and got away with their crimes, so everybody happy 'cept the victimised Christians.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by Arto View Post
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...t-9988227.html

    Another swift move of the Turkish government, this process of accepting the Genocide is somewhere far away.
    Weeeeeell... the anniversary of the 100 years from Gallipoli is indeed 24th of April.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Yes, exactly, if one Armenian had survived it would still be "not-a-genocide" right?
    But I beleve we have debated that before.
    I could be posting photographs of cospses and you would be saying that they were "isolated incidents" or "faked photographs" or whatever.
    (Really, Setekh, how many "isolated incidents" would you need me to pile up before you admit that together they are forming a bigger picture that only Turks deny?)
    I could be posting quotes from the journal of the American ambassador at the time in Turkey and you would be saying "malevolent propaganda".
    Instead I will say what I said to you before:
    If you have already decided what you want the truth to be then you will disregard all the facts that point to something else.
    Not one Armenian but when you have hundreds of thousands of them reaching their destinations alive then it raises a few flags.

    Of course you can post pictures. A lot of them would be indeed fake ones. To this day, Wikipedia still has pictures of soldiers standing on corpses with captions telling you that those soldiers are Ottoman soldiers, except they're wearing Russian uniforms... Easy to fake against the public that doesn't really knows the difference. However, there are of course many pictures that accurately depict Turkish soldiers with corpses. What do they tell exactly? Who do the corpses belong to? Who killed them? Where was it taken? You wouldn't really know. You'd expect the sheer brutality of the pictures somehow automatically prove genocide...

    How many of such photos can you really produce? We're talking about tens of thousands of villages. How many of them are actually relevant photos and not some randomly brutal picture you found online? How many isolated incidents are ok? What's the number limit where we can't consider it as an isolated incident? Nobody denies that the region was ridden with death. Famine, diseases, and ethnic clashes was rampant. Most Western accounts do point to that. They usually paint a picture of chaos. The assumption of guilt by Ottomans is usually an addition of the reader.

    But, you'd ignore that the Ottoman government itself tried it's own people for crimes against the Armenians in 1915 and 1916 with many jailed and dozens of people, including government officials and military personnel operating in the region, hanged for their crimes.

    Of course you could post quotes from Morgenthau who never been to the region or even came close to it. You would forget to mention that he was specifically trying to use the Christians in the region to get US into the war or that the man who prepared his journal was an Armenian. But, you'd also ignore others that visited the region and provided a different version of what happened.

    So, perhaps, I should say that to you; "If you have already decided what you want the truth to be then you will disregard all the facts that point to something else."


    Quote Originally Posted by Treize View Post
    Declaring war on the British Empire and then percieved the invasion of Gallipoli as something unjust.

    Boo hoo.

    Atleast the CUP more or less "fixed" the war of their own making and got away with their crimes, so everybody happy 'cept the victimised Christians.
    If only it was that simple, however, I don't really remember it being advertised as unjust. It's usually thought as a prime example of horrible scenery of warfare and existence of friendship among enemies.

    There was already capitulations on Ottoman Empire by Britain and France. There was also the whole issue around Britain refusing to deliver two ships Ottoman Empire already paid for. Still, the Sultan first approached the British for alliance. The British response was quite unenthusiastic while Germans were wanting it badly. Two of their ships were given safe harbor in the empire and they refused to give the German ships to the British. The ships were "bought" on the spot but their crew remained German. When the ships sailed for Russian ports and bombed them, the Russians declared war on Ottoman Empire. Three days later the British and the French followed.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; January 20, 2015 at 06:22 PM.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    I have no particular interest to paint Turkey in any colour good or bad.
    I have not decided on any verdict nor am I interested in producing one.

    I would like to remind current readers of this thread an older post of mine:

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    About the dispute of the facts:

    It seems the Armenian argument is:
    -"Look what they have done to us! The magnitude of the death toll makes it genocide!"
    A claim for Actus Reus.

    And it seems that the main Turkish argument is:
    -"They didn't mean to. There was no intention to eradicate the Armenian ethnic group (because the burden to prove such intention falls upon the accusers and such intention has not been proven)."
    A claim that Mens Rea has not been established.
    So the main Turkish defence is the Common Law principle that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty"

    I have not bothered with facts because those who are determined to support a certain version of "history" will doggedly deny the validity of anything that does not fit into their worldview.
    Gargantuan discomforts generate gargantuan denials.
    That is the reason why I will dot be bothered with presenting facts in this thread in the future.

    Imagine person A accuses his neighbor, person B, that B's dog has "eaten" A's newspaper.
    For a B totally unwilling to admit any responsibility (let alone accept liability), a plethora of arguments lay at his disposal:

    1. -"Your newspaper was not delivered today."
    2. -"Your newspaper was delivered in one piece to you but you are lying trying to pick a fight."
    3. -"Your newspaper was eaten by some other dog."
    4. -"My dog grabbed your newspaper because you were beating him with it."
    5. -"My dog ate your newspaper but it's not my fault, dogs will be dogs, better care more next time.
    6. -"Dog? What dog? I don't have a dog..."
    7. -"..." You get the picture.

    Personaly, I am not trying to convince the deniers to change their worldview.
    That would be an exercise in futility.
    Instead I am trying to convey to them the way I perceive the true causes of their denial.
    And the true causes of their denial from my perspective have nothing to do with established facts or the rules of logic and reasoning, or the scientific method.
    I perceive these causes to be psychological.
    Human rationality is bounded and nothing bounds it more than the collective VABEs (stands for Values, Assumptions, Beliefs and Expectations) of a society.

    And I can assure everyone that the scientific method is an alltogether very potent instrument with which to generate literature in support of ANY argument.
    The side that spends the most money ("science" is expensive) will end up with the most pieces of "scientific" literature in support of it's positions.
    Recep Tayyip Erdoğan addressing the Turkish Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÜBİTAK)- 27/12/2011.
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erd...&NewsCatID=338

    I rest my case.

  19. #19

    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    I have no particular interest to paint Turkey in any colour good or bad.
    I have not decided on any verdict nor am I interested in producing one.
    Claiming that is one thing, arguing it is an other. You have an odd way of showing that you're not arguing for a particular version of history.
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    Default Re: ''The Gallipoli centenary is a shameful attempt to hide the Armenian Holocaust''

    Turkey wants to commemorate WWI. Why should they care what the Armenians think?

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