Use of the word "Rank" discussion

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Just copied the posts over from the proposal thread so this discussion could take place.

[Halie Satanus]

I have always disliked the 'rank' element of the constitution. It infers a hierarchy which infers elitism. It's actually a very damaging, in context of the curia's image, relic of past curial attitude....

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Now is this being mischievous or an actual point?

So hard to tell.

[Halie Satanus]

No, this one is an actual point. Honest...

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Well if you ask me rank doesn't infer hierarchy or elitism but instead confers a sense of respect towards Citizens, which is a key part of the Curia's image of being the pinnacle of the site's community where contributors from all over come and interact with each other in a respectful and dignified way in an effort to encourage similar behaviour throughout the site as the reward is the honourable and respectful rank of Citizen...

[Halie Satanus]

Well if you ask me rank doesn't infer hierarchy or elitism but instead confers a sense of respect towards Citizens, which is a key part of the Curia's image of being the pinnacle of the site's community where contributors from all over come and interact with each other in a respectful and dignified way in an effort to encourage similar behaviour throughout the site as the reward is the honourable and respectful rank of Citizen...

''divided into the following ranks'' - ''rank of Citizen or higher'' < Literally infers *hierarchy > *a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority.

Or, a system which creates animosity among those who are excluded..

I wonder, if the word 'rank' was changed to something less divisive, if that would (at least) begin to change the curia's image.

[PikeStance]

I agree with HS. Plus, citizenship is the highest rank. Does higher refer to Administration or Moderators? Given you do not need to be a citizen to be admin or a moderator, it would be something different, not higher than.

I am not sure what to do with the term, rank. It denotes a hierarchy by itself. Perhaps the term, status, would be a better route to go. The term, Class, can be an option, but that has more negative connotations than rank may infer.

[Aikanár]

For the lack of a better word you could use their label, both are "permission groups" - not the best of ideas, but not as divisive as "rank" either.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

''rank of Citizen or higher'

That bit is immaterial; there isn't a rank outlined that is higher than Citizen, I left it because it means if there ever is this bit of the Constitution would still be intact without having to change it. "divided" is simply a form of segmentation for the different groups, that word is interchangeable with anything that it is synonymous with e.g. separated, split or the like. The whole point of Citizenship is to award members who contribute - they are awarded with a badge, some posting rights etc. By your definition sure that makes the site a hierarchy but I can't really see that impression, I mean how else do you award contributing members without giving them something or than status (a medal, a badge, a coloured username) or authority (posting rights). Plus if the Curia is creating animosity because people feel excluded... well at least then it shows people want to be able to partake in the Curia, something better then the current situation.

As long as there is concept of rewarding members with some-place like the Curia then you are always going to have hierarchy. I can't think of a way where it wouldn't be defined by such. You could change the wording of rank to types of members, members belong in either X group of Y group, members are either identified as X or Y but there is still an implied form of division and hierarchy by your definition, indeed at least rank provides the implication of being able to 'rise' and 'attain' the next one up - furthering the idea Citizenship is something people want to work towards.

Want to get rid of hierarchy? Get rid of Citizens, or make everyone Citizens... changing just the rank element isn't going to change what you have described.

@Pike, Moderators and Admins aren't ranks, they are positions.

[PikeStance]

I love the response, but I still don't get the retention of the phrase "or higher." I do not see a rationale for keeping something that is clearly (as it is now) archaic.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Because it means the Constitution remains applicable even if new ranks are introduced.

[Halie Satanus]

That bit is immaterial; there isn't a rank outlined that is higher than Citizen,

But there are below [that's the inference], which was my point.

ranktitle


All members of the forum can be divided recognised by the following titles. Each title confers on the holders a specific set of privileges unavailable to other titles unless explicitly stated. < starting to look a bit less up itself no?

Just a couple of points: Why divided? also there are no 'rights' only privileges.

Obviously this would need further discussion and I don't want to hold up your changes.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Title... I guess it could fit:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Section I - Member RanksTitles and the CuratorCurial Officers

All members of the Fforum can be dividedrecognised/identified into the following ranksby the following titles. Each ranktitle confers on the holders a specific set of rights and privileges unavailable to other ranks unless explicitly stated. An individual may hold only one account of the rankwith the title of Citizen or higher. In addition toA member, in addition to their normal rankthe rankstitles outlined below a member may also hold other positions or honours entitled to badges. In this case they may choose which rankbadge to display. Regardless of the rankbadge listed next to their namedisplayed they retain all the rights and privileges associated with all of their rankshonours.

Article I. RanksTitles

Peregrinus (Non-Citizen)

Any member newly registered to the TWC Forums of the forum is automatically a Peregrinus (Non-Citizen). ItThis title confers posting rights in the General Forapublic forums. Any Peregrinus hasas well as the right to ask questions and suggest changes in the "Questions and Suggestions" Fforum, as well asand make contributions in the "Forum Magnum" section of The Capitol, as set out in Section 5, Article 2.

Citizens

Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen of the Forum as per Article 2 below. Once a member becomes a Citizen, they can then choose between three different badges. Artifex, designed for those who have contributed through modding, Civitate, designed for those who have contributed through debating and writing, and Citizen, designed for those who have contributed in other ways, or wish to identify with neither or both.

To qualify for Citizen, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have not received a Moderation Warning or Curial Warning within the past six months.

All Citizens have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section 3; may post with the Symposium and may patronise other members as per Article II.

Article II. Patronisation

Any Citizen holdingwho has held their ranktitle for three consecutive months can patronise a Peregrinus for cCitizenship subject to the requirements in Article I above. The process of patronisation is as follows.:

1. The patron confirms the candidate meets the requirements, or a candidate meeting the requirements contacts a Citizen asking for patronage.
2. The patron writes an introduction letter outlining why they are nominating the candidate.
3. The candidate and patron formulate an application which highlights the candidate's contributions along with any supporting evidence/information.
4. The patron posts the introduction letter and application in a new thread in the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum.
5. After two days discussion period have passed the Curator adds a Ppoll lasting for five days.
6. The period of discussiondiscussion period can be extended at the discretion of the Curator provided an explanation is given.
7. If the nomineeapplicant achieves sixty per cent of the non-abstaining votes they become a Citizenare granted the title of Citizen.
8. The Curator informs the candidate and patron of the result. If the candidate does not pass, the Curator includes the date at which they may re-apply. If the candidate passes they may apply to Citizen usergroups which the Curator accepts.
9. If the candidate passes, the Curator promotes the member to Citizen.

If a nomineeapplicant fails they are not eligible to be considered againapply again for one month after the conclusion of the standard seven day processing periodof the poll. Citizens must not vote in applications of members they patronize.

Article III. RankTitles and Award Resignation

The ranktitle of Citizen and all Awards listed herein Section V, Article 3 are honours given to members based on their meritby the Curia. While members may refuse or resign their honours, that does not reduce their merittheir right to them once they have been granted by the Curia. andAs such they may request them back at will if they have not been revoked in the meantime. Procedures to remove a member's honours operate normally even if the member is not currently displaying them, except that the member is assumed to have declined any right of notification or response.

Article IV. The Curator and Curial Officers

The Curator shall be elected by the procedure in Section 3, Article 2. The Curator shall hold office for a period of three months from the day of their election, carried out by the procedure in Section 3, Article 2.. If the Curator is absent (has not logged into the site) for 7 days without giving a notice of an absence, is absent for more than 15 days regardless of notice, resigns, or is subject to a successful VoNC, they are automatically removed from office along with any appointed staffassistants.

Any decisions of thise office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. Wheren such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office of the Curator is empty shall not count towards the limit and will only continue only from when a new Curator is elected. When the office of the Curator is empty the Censor whose term is closest to completion will organize the election for a new Curator and assume day to day administration of the Curia.

The Curator is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks are accomplished. Upon entering office the Curator must officially appoint at least one Citizen to fulfil the Curator's role on a planned or unplanned absence, and should the Curator wish, to assist with day to day tasks. No matter who carries out the tasks assigned to the elected Curator, the Curator is the one responsible for seeing that they are done promptly and correctly.

Curial Officers are Citizens who have been elected by the Curia to fulfil a certain role for the site. All Curial elected positions are Curial Officers unless stated otherwise.

I am happy for the discussion to take place as part of this proposal, although I personally feel it is still a moot point.

[PikeStance]

Because it means the Constitution remains applicable even if new ranks are introduced.

It seems odd to "clean- up" the constitution, but leave something not needed in the event it might be needed in the future.

[PikeStance]

May I make a suggestion,.... some (traditionalists) may not see "rank" to "title" as an aesthetic change. The clean-up work by Shanks maybe undone by those who object the change. Would it be best to make a separate proposal. My apologies if I am coming off as a needless alarmist.

[Halie Satanus]

May I make a suggestion,.... some (traditionalists) may not see "rank" to "title" as an aesthetic change. The clean-up work by Shanks maybe undone by those who object the change. Would it be best to make a separate proposal. My apologies if I am coming off as a needless alarmist.

I agree, said as much already. Might be a bigger undertaking than I have time for at the moment, maybe I'll have time tomorrow to take a swing at this.

Obviously this would need further discussion and I don't want to hold up your changes.

[Bethencourt]

Terms that we use in general refering to a thing that is uncomfortable for some or has a negative significance are usually changed by other words that with time are seen as negative or uncomfortable as the first ones, just because it is not the word, it is all the other social implications that with time go undermining the initial neutral purpose.

I do not like those kind of swapping processes that with time tend to burn the synomous dictionary.

So maybe what is questioned here are the social implications, a group of people that are given access to special fórums, given some banners, coloured names, right to participate in the redaction of some rules, all that and probably some missing more through a recognition process of their past contribution to the site. So, don't we like this?

[Halie Satanus]

Ach, god dam it Shank... I've been Ninja'ed.. feels like payback for pointing out those anomalies...

Any hoo. I was formulating an idea, not a big idea, a small one and I don't have time now to edit the context of this post to this thread, but meh...

The purpose of this thread is to look at the constitution in the context of the image of the curia. Historically the curia has a long held reputation of elitist RPG where the great and the good of TWC find themselves overcome by a sudden boost in imaginary status and power. Quite often, I suspect, when the reality hits, new citizens go back to their regular posting habits and forget about the curia.

Over the years there have been many threads and theories brought forward in attempts to fix the curia, to boost participation or to entice more citizens to stay in the curia or bring more citizens in. My feeling is none of those things have ever worked because they never tackled the very foundation the curia is built on. The constitution. Not it’s content specifically, but the way it’s written, the negative and sometimes divisive language, the vibe it gives off.

In short I feel the constitution has the oppressive feel of a document which perpetuates and enforces the exclusive RPG element of the curia. Maybe, it’s time we changed that.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Well they do say revenge is best served with a thread...

Now, how would you want to change it?

Do you still want something akin to the Constitution? Do you want rid of it all together? etc. there are a lot of ways to go about what you are suggesting. I personally don't find the Constitution oppressive, to me it just outlines what have become traditions of TWC without the burden of an official rule thread to enforce and how to organise things like elections and medal awarding - without it you would still need something that goes about doing something similar.

[PikeStance]

Well, this is blossoming into something larger isn't it. I stated in the past that the "Constitution: needed to be restructured or reformatted to be more reflective of what the site actually is and how it actually is run. AS it is, the name and the structure gives the impression that TWC is a three branch government. When in fact, it is only a business. The Admin run the site. They recruit specific members to run various posts as well as moderators to oversee that the ToS are adhered to. The Curia is NOT a legislative branch in any form of the meaning. It is simply one part of the site. A part that essentially recognizes the contribution of its members. As a result, it is made up of these members. While it can make suggestions, it is not an exclusive right. Plus, you could argue the Tribunal is a judicial system, but it really isn't; only a small part it actually resembles something similar to a court of appeals. Lastly, the term "constitution" implies it is something it s not. I had this discussion before, but people are were "stuck" on tradition before.

Anyway, my two cents. Any change would be a momental task sure to bring out a long tiresome debate. LOL Such as the Curia is