How do I use skirmishers effectively?

[lampros69]

I can't figure out how these troops work in this game. They are hybrids that do not seem to do either melee or ranged fighting well. In particular, in melee they keep switching primary and secondary weapons back and forth until they get slaughtered, even when I put them out of fire at will mode. This seems like almost a bug, as I do not have the same problems with non-skirmish missile troops. Has anyone figured out how to employ these effectively?

[UndrState]

Can you name a couple of examples? I'm having trouble imagining which units your are talking about.

[lampros69]

Can you name a couple of examples? I'm having trouble imagining which units your are talking about.

I've had this issue with Javeliners - the first time I've used them. I've avoided using them at all from the get-go, but I was just curious as to how they perform, so out of curiosity, I tested them. And they got locked into melee when spearmen closed on them; and then they kept switching back and forth between their weapons even when it was clear they were completely enveloped by spearmen and had no room to throw javelins. And they lost by a lot - even though their stats were superior to the spearmen, and they should have won if they did not waste time switching weapons and not fighting.

[UndrState]

I've had this issue with Javeliners - the first time I've used them. I've avoided using them at all from the get-go, but I was just curious as to how they perform, so out of curiosity, I tested them. And they got locked into melee when spearmen closed on them; and then they kept switching back and forth between their weapons even when it was clear they were completely enveloped by spearmen and had no room to throw javelins. And they lost by a lot - even though their stats were superior to the spearmen, and they should have won if they did not waste time switching weapons and not fighting.

And this is in Vanilla, correct? Do you mind testing the Alt-click meleeing with Fire-At-Will off and see if that solves it?

[lampros69]

And this is in Vanilla, correct? Do you mind testing the Alt-click meleeing with Fire-At-Will off and see if that solves it?

Completely resolved; thank you!

I was using SS; I don't play vanilla any longer.

OMG, double thanks again.

Skirmishers now can actually beat spearmen of comparable cost!

[UndrState]

FYI "F1" during a battle brings up the hotkeys list. There might be other functions that will interest you. Like waypoints everyone forgets about waypoints.

[lampros69]

FYI "F1" during a battle brings up the hotkeys list. There might be other functions that will interest you. Like waypoints everyone forgets about waypoints.

Ah, never knew about F1. Will do - triple thanks!

[tudor93]

Hmmm, you guys use javelinmen? I still think they are kinda broken in M2TW, they worked fine in R1 though.

[lampros69]

Hmmm, you guys use javelinmen? I still think they are kinda broken in M2TW, they worked fine in R1 though.

I didn't even try them in vanilla; but they look okay in SS. How do they compare in Rome 1? I played the heck out of it when it came out, but that was over a decade ago, and I don't remember past a few weeks ago!

[UndrState]

I like them in vanilla, especially in sieges, in the streets. I think they're most effective shooting over friendlies (like spearmen) to hit the unit they're engaged with, more so than archers.

[tudor93]

First of all, they have a very slow rate of fire, and by that I mean VERY SLOW. They seem glitchy as they don't always fire when I tell them to do it, even if they have a perfect angle and a clear path in front of them. My javelins never shot if they had friendlies in front of them - by that I mean that you could only see 3-4 javelins every 6 seconds in the air. I have to maneuver them in the back of the enemies, and even then only like half of the unit shots. And they can't fire from the walls, just like guns.
Edit: jav cav works fine, I like them .

[shikaka]

My experience is that it is not easy to use them effectively. The best are the ones which can double up as medium infantry (like spanish javelins).


The biggest problem in vanilla (and most mods!), is that the battles are over very quickly: lines clash, one side wins the flanking and the opposition starts to rout. This setup does not work in favor of the foot javeliners, they need time to get in position.


There are mods which make them useful, like "Last Kingdom". There are no über-javelinman, no heavily modified stats (they have "good stamina" though), but the environment where they operate is a bit different. To simulate the "push of shieldwalls", the mod has very good defense ratings and morale, so it is very difficult to break a formation from the front. All things equal (no flanking), two shieldwalls will fight for a very long time without any major effect. This stage of battle, before on side breaks can be 5-10 minutes in real time. In this case, javelins are immensly useful: they are a bit quicker then spearman, have good stamina, so they can be used to run around the melee, and start throwing javelins into the backs of the enemy. Sometimes they are caught (if the enemy has reserves, or units joining the fight later), but very often they are the difference between a draw (I actually had draw outcome) and an easy win.

[tudor93]

The biggest problem in vanilla (and most mods!), is that the battles are over very quickly: lines clash, one side wins the flanking and the opposition starts to rout. This setup does not work in favor of the foot javeliners, they need time to get in position.

Exactly what I wanted to say. In order for them to be effective I have to maneuver them in the back of the enemy line, but first I have to mop up any enemy reservers (or enemy cavalry). And by the time I do all these things the enemy is already routing.

[Maklodes]

Foot javelineers have an extremely slow throwing animation in M2TW -- they throw about as frequently as crossbowmen shoot, so not a huge amount can be expected from them in terms of doing a lot with their javelins. Mounted javelineers, on the other hand, are pretty fast throwers, throwing about twice as often as foot javelineers/crossbowmen, or about 1.4 times as fast as archers.

Glitched animations have always been one of the biggest challenges to M2TW's balance.

[lampros69]

My experience is that it is not easy to use them effectively. The best are the ones which can double up as medium infantry (like spanish javelins).


The biggest problem in vanilla (and most mods!), is that the battles are over very quickly: lines clash, one side wins the flanking and the opposition starts to rout. This setup does not work in favor of the foot javeliners, they need time to get in position.

Which mods have longer battles - and how do they accomplish this?

I modded vanilla with -50 percent speed on all units and gave every unit twice the HP (so bodyguard units had 4, and normal units had 2). This had the potential to nerf ranged (because it's harder for ranged to land two killing blows on a unit than melee), so I doubled the range of ranged units. I may do this with any mod I end up playing (currently I only play SS).

[D@gget]

I usually keep javelinmen behind my main infantry line. They don't seem to do much, their rate of fire is slow and their range is pitiful, but you'll be surprised in the battle result screen at how many kills they get when you keep them out of melee and firing continuously. Specially effective at defending chokepoints in city battles. Javelin cav is even better but they get less ammo.

[Macunaíma]

D@gget is right. Keep them right behind your lines of spearmen and infantry and they'll get you some nice kills against armored oponents. Just don't put them on melee range. They must be good on walls too, to rip enemies that are too close to them.

[RuthlessChubbz]

Yes they are fantastic on walls. I don't have a lot of experience with the factions that have them but I've found when I recruit the merc Catalans or Afghans and place them on the wall just near a city / castle gate, they wreak havoc from above. Especially useful against the Mongols / Timurids who are mostly heavily armored.

[shikaka]

Which mods have longer battles - and how do they accomplish this?

I modded vanilla with -50 percent speed on all units and gave every unit twice the HP (so bodyguard units had 4, and normal units had 2). This had the potential to nerf ranged (because it's harder for ranged to land two killing blows on a unit than melee), so I doubled the range of ranged units. I may do this with any mod I end up playing (currently I only play SS).

Take a look at "The last kingdom". I don't know the specifics, but
- units have high defense values
- units have good morale
- there are units which give bonuses to morale

If we take into account equal armies (so no full envelopement possible), an average battle lasts for at least 5 minutes (without maneuvering), likely more.

[puddingkip]

In all honesty you're better off not recruiting them in vanilla or SS.
They might have some situational uses depending on your play style. But long range archers outperform them 99 of the 100 times. They are an extremely defensive unit whilst both stainless steel and vanilla heavily favour aggressive play styles.
Melee cavalry, horse archers and a few long range archers protected by some melee troops who have as sole tasks manning siege equipment and soaking up damaga/holding a line is the best build in vanilla and any of the mods I played though I never played "the last kingdom" so I don't know about that.