Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,620

    Default Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS



    Although this documentary doesn't inform one as well as an academic paper, it's still educational enough while still being entertaining, I think.

    Speaking of which, I actually wrote a paper about Nazi occultism as an undergrad years ago (I am now a PhD student studying medieval history). I didn't watch this entire lengthy documentary but I will say that they nail much of the essential points about the cult of the SS, including its renunciation of Christianity in favor of an exceedingly esoteric race-based theology inspired by Norse mythology, Asian mysticism, and pseudoscientific ideas about race. However, they could have dived further into the roots of this politico-religious movement in 19th-century theosophy. Of course this was all Himmler's obsessive wide-eyed pet project; Hitler, ever the cynic, is even quoted (by an early defector who allegedly spoke with him in confidence) as saying that religion is merely a useful thing to exploit for political ends and social control. I also find it amusing that Himmler was obsessed with ancient Germanic artifacts like rune stones, while Hitler was unimpressed and even pointed out that at the same time the Greco-Roman world was far more advanced and civilized in comparison.

    The Nazis' belief about the Holy Grail (touched upon in the video) is also very fascinating. I thinkit can be seen as part of the larger trend of divorcing things from Christianity, seen as irredeemably Jewish, and ascribing to them a significance in Nordic paganism instead.

  2. #2
    Praepositus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,637

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Nazism was influenced by 19th century notions of German identity, including wide-eyed romanticism and anti-intellectual mysticism as well as all kinds of pseudoscience.

    This sort of rubbish thinking wasn't exclusively German, there were weird pan-Slavic thinkers, and if you read William Morris' novels (which so influenced Tolkien) you'll see even the English were swept up in this movement.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #3
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    kvet.lɪnˌbuʁk
    Posts
    3,485

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    i didn´t watched the vid, but i know that himmler was deep into the indian bhagavad gita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita and believed strong in reincarnation. he for himself like be seen as reincarnation henri I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_Fowler

    also funny:
    battlestar galactica has a gospel of the rigveda as an intro



    oṃ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥtát savitúr váreniyaṃbhárgo devásya dhīmahidhíyo yó naḥ pracodáyātA literal translation of the Gayatri verse proper can be given as:
    "May we attain that excellent glory of Savitar the god:

    So may he stimulate our prayers."
    The Hymns of the Rigveda (1896), Ralph T. H. Griffith[5]

    if this isn´t occult at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This sort of rubbish thinking wasn't exclusively German, there were weird pan-Slavic thinkers, and if you read William Morris' novels (which so influenced Tolkien) you'll see even the English were swept up in this movement.
    yes, miss blavatsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky and "lanz von liebenfels" - same as hitler
    Last edited by _Tartaros_; January 14, 2015 at 06:51 PM.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    "But I don't know how to mod!!!!"
    Learn. I didn't know how to do anything when I got this game, and now I know how to do quite a bit. Volunteer. Struggle. Figure it out.
    There are lots of cool mods that never see the light of day because people don't realize that mods need workers, not watchers, or realize it but continue to watch anyway.

    The Great Conflicts
    872-1071

    Incursio Pyrrhi - melts with Paeninsula Italica II

  4. #4
    Praepositus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,637

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by _Tartaros_ View Post
    ...

    yes, miss blavatsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky and "lanz von liebenfels" - same as hitler
    To be fair, theosophy was egalitarian and did not (in theory) discriminate by "race" or gender. Ariosophy on the other hand...

    Aquick look at wiki shows me Rudolf Steiner left the Theosophists to form his own group, the Anthroposophists. Much harder to pronounce.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  5. #5
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Middle freaking east
    Posts
    7,429

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    the religion lives on in various forms with all the masonic cult,templars,Jews, Illuminati stories.
    Though nowadays each group uses the "target" group to shape their own identity. I have seen nordic-white supremacist versions of conspiracies, Islamist versions, libertarian versions, radical left versions as well marginal dude who has no idea whats going on.(my father has a 3rd Reich flag next to a zionist Jew flag, and he talks of 9/11 metaphysical philosophy or something....I know ,its crazy, don't know how I should handle him)


    As far as I see it, Nazi ideology and beliefs were more about channeling hatred to exploit an existing social crisis. And whats left of it is a dirty menace that destroys the value of an intellectual tradition with conspiracy stories.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Possibly off-topic but is quiet related to roots:


    That being said, I had a genuine interest in occult traditions, meditation, "being one with time" for a while purely for intellectual purposes. I think its really interesting how it connects to quantum physics.
    These mystical traditions always relate to each other in various religions. When you get to the history of it, it is obvious that all religions have had a massive trade among each other and each religion was built up on previous mystical layers. This was especially a colourful area in Middle East.
    I always mock religious folk but a while ago I read an academic piece on Tasavvuf by a Muslim-Uni scholar and was amazed at how in control of philosophy he was from Pre-socratics to neo-platonism, hermetic tradition, neo-Pythagorism, Buddhism, pagan groups like Tengriist, Zoroastrianism and Manicheanism, ancient Egyptian and Greek mythologies, dialectics...etc. He made an amazing connection between Hermes the Greek god, and Hızır, a mystical figure in Islamized Anatolia. (Alevis who are an extension of a sufi cult for instance has a lot of songs about Hızır, Hermes, the wise messenger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKTeUbTPggI and their prayers include singing and dancing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeVZQIs99P0)
    I then started to seriously appreciate tasavvuf, the Islamic Sufi traditions in a different way(I already loved the music, now I love the poetry )

    It also made me understand the deal with Sufism that all souls are just ways to ONE...one being god in traditional religion but it takes a much more philosophical position in mystical traditions(such as more pantheistic explanations or TIME). When looked from a historical perspective, we can see the signs of the ancient beliefs where sages and special people make connection to other worlds and spirits becoming "mystics" in Abrahamic religions.
    It is also obvious that these people were influential in selling the Abrahamic fates to other groups. For instance Islam spread to Tengriist Turkic groups, N.African tribes or Manichean-Hindu-Buddist Central-South Asians through sufi-mystics who had quiet blasphemous rituals and concepts.
    See what Rumi's teacher says:

    Why should I seek? I am the same as
    He. His essence speaks through me.
    I have been looking for myself!


    Isis would behead this guy all day.

    In all religions, the main guys were probably these mystic types that turned their teachings of "finding inner piece" into organized religion. This is more prominent in middle east.
    Muhammed was in Hira mountain alone for 40 days before he "contacted god"....I bet he was meditating and getting high.
    Which makes me think, perhaps in the root of all religions, there is one tradition, which spread in different forms to other cultures. And that was finding peace, which happens in our minds when we feel blissful with ourselves, our moment, the time. I feel like I can connect literally all religions of today to these activities such as meditation that transformed into each new culture in different forms until it got meaningless over time.

    The Nazi case, I feel like as though is a Euro-centric attempt to make sense of occultism....which is something you are not supposed to do in these traditions because they are all meant to be personal, and experience should not be written but "experienced directly" in your "soul-mind"....European rationality tried to put everything on rational boundaries and on paper which is what mystical traditions were against. Thats why music, poetry, or creative highly interpretable arts/activities were more important to mystics. When it was tried to be rationalized, it gave rise to all sorts of weird beliefs and conspiracy stories.
    I don't know much about Nazi beliefs but did they deal with sages of Nordic mythology in ancient Germanic tribes? I bet they did.

    In any case, human's attempt to connect to their brain, to their spirit and in their interpretation to a metaphysical world is an interesting phenomena. And there is a bit of scientific-ness to it as well, at least in terms of finding inner piece. Our minds, when we try to get into it, can feel overwhelming, powerful, scary or blissful at times. Religions were fed greatly from these mystical traditions. It brings even the most powerful man to his knees, his own lost soul.

    When I read more on these issues, everything made a lot more sense with the conspiracy theories and why they exist and the deal with all the "imagery"....occult-esoteric traditions has a lot of material for conspiracies of the modern era which caused all these ridiculous beliefs. I for one view them as a massive mis-interpretation.
    And I think this area needs to be dug academically to clear the ridiculous conspiracy theories as they are explored more and taken for what they were really.

    I didn't really get the point of the thread so I made a general commentary on the issue, I hope you don't mind . That being said, it is seriously amazing how "enlightened" some of the mystics were, and that we can possibly link their ideas regarding life and reality, on ontology as a core tradition which took different forms in different religions but continued the same core ideas.
    Here is one of Rumi's poems from an amazing soundtrack of a movie that deals with Sufi-mystic imagery in an amazing way(Bab-Aziz)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaNGDrKKasA - the music is actually important from a mysticist view as it gets to your soul and you "interpret" what you feel, that is your connection to "god" and it can indeed be a blissful thing even for a materialist science-obsessed guy like me.


    Check the lyrics, for a 13th century poem, there is a massive insight to what we know today of quantum physics(not only he talks of motion and that everything is made up of atoms, but he connects "light" to matter and their dance, their constant movement-that what looks motionless is in fact is in so much motion at the atomic level that it looks motionless kind of like when something moves so fast it looks like its just staying there, like a propeller, happy and miserable with different magnetic connections which can bring us all the way to Einstein and his theories on mass-energy interconnection, expanding and parallel universes, relativity of time...etc you could say a primitive, more art oriented version of PHYSICS was god to these people). When you think about it, this Islamic Sufi tradition possibly connects to Hermetic tradition and Neo-Platonic Christian mysticism which possibly connects to ancient Greek mythology and philosophical schools(its actually easy to come across discussions of ancient philosophers among Islamic intellectuals but more so among the mystics such as Muhyiddin Ibn-i Arabi), various middle eastern cults, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism(sages and fire, light, energy concepts)-Manicheanism(of good and evil) ...when we consider the connection of Greek-Roman mythological cults and Egyptian mythology(and its priest traditions) in the Hellenistic period, and how they possibly penetrated into rest of the middle east creating a whole basis for mysticism when Christianity spread, Jewish mysticism Kaballah formed and finally Islam took over. The tradition however probably continued under different religions with very similar themes and methods. Nowadays, modernity has smashed these groups though, and as science became more in front of our eyes, something to learn by reading and as religion become more outside public sphere in developed countries, mystic traditions lost their previous cool-ness and in fact became quiet orthodox in their views.

    When I saw the connection to ancient Egypt and how various cults with their esoteric traditions might have continued some things well into the modern period, all the conspiracy stories made more sense to me in a more non-conspiracy way. I then understood why conspiracy freaks go so crazy over pyramids, eyes and ancient Egyptian iconography for they were important in the united traditions of mystical schools which were quiet "ahead of their time" back in the day as you can see from the poem above.

    I find this seriously fascinating, unfortunately masses have turned these into conspiracies about secret forces with magical powers ruling the world....
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  6. #6
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,620

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    I find this seriously fascinating, unfortunately masses have turned these into conspiracies about secret forces with magical powers ruling the world....
    No big surprise there given humanity's track record. Take any good idea that anyone has ever had and give it some time; eventually someone will come around and ruin it or pervert it into something else. I'm almost as certain of this as I am about death and taxes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    No big surprise there given humanity's track record. Take any good idea that anyone has ever had and give it some time; eventually someone will come around and ruin it or pervert it into something else. I'm almost as certain of this as I am about death and taxes.
    I agree entirely; no matter how positive the idea, someone can turn it into something unpleasant. The most obvious example would be Communism, but Christianity, feminism, the theory of evolution by natural selection and the ideas of Nietzche are some others that spring to mind. Even Buddism, often seen as the benchmark for benign philosophy/religion is used for violence and bigotry.

    969 movement.

    2013 Burma anti-Muslim riots.

  8. #8
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    11,819

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post


    Although this documentary doesn't inform one as well as an academic paper, it's still educational enough while still being entertaining, I think.

    Speaking of which, I actually wrote a paper about Nazi occultism as an undergrad years ago (I am now a PhD student studying medieval history). I didn't watch this entire lengthy documentary but I will say that they nail much of the essential points about the cult of the SS, including its renunciation of Christianity in favor of an exceedingly esoteric race-based theology inspired by Norse mythology, Asian mysticism, and pseudoscientific ideas about race. However, they could have dived further into the roots of this politico-religious movement in 19th-century theosophy. Of course this was all Himmler's obsessive wide-eyed pet project; Hitler, ever the cynic, is even quoted (by an early defector who allegedly spoke with him in confidence) as saying that religion is merely a useful thing to exploit for political ends and social control. I also find it amusing that Himmler was obsessed with ancient Germanic artifacts like rune stones, while Hitler was unimpressed and even pointed out that at the same time the Greco-Roman world was far more advanced and civilized in comparison.

    The Nazis' belief about the Holy Grail (touched upon in the video) is also very fascinating. I thinkit can be seen as part of the larger trend of divorcing things from Christianity, seen as irredeemably Jewish, and ascribing to them a significance in Nordic paganism instead.
    Interestinglythere a sort of good fantasy/thriller written in the late 70s as I recall. Himmler has a two historians (American or British) and a Norwegian explorer kidnapped (or rather arrested on trumped charges) in 1938. They are to help an expedition to Greenland to find Thor's Hammer. It ends up playing a bit out like the end of Indian Jones later does but the mid part is a a good thriller - since people keep getting dead. But that is because of the internal rivieras in the Nazi state and British intelligence activity etc. Since the two main historians are no Indiana Jones it gets a good claustrophobic feel of being out of control and not really knowing if anyone will live at all.
    Last edited by conon394; February 17, 2015 at 12:39 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #9
    Aram Kurdo's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Greater Kurdistan
    Posts
    220

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    i just want to say, many things its wiered and strange and somehow funny and foolish thing for you, or what is called CONSPIRACY THEORY, is can be actually Conspiracy Realism, but you dont have any idea about it and dont know about whats hidden things in it and you must think as so.

    so ...
    Racists and Fascists Call You Terrorists, Humanity Calls You "FREEDOM FIGHTER"
    YPJ (Women protection Units) Warriors in Rojava (Kurdistan Of Syria)




  10. #10
    Henry of Grosmont's Avatar Clockwork Angel
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Xanadu
    Posts
    5,076

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    ...Speaking of which, I actually wrote a paper about Nazi occultism as an undergrad years ago (I am now a PhD student studying medieval history). I didn't watch this entire lengthy documentary but I will say that they nail much of the essential points about the cult of the SS, including its renunciation of Christianity in favor of an exceedingly esoteric race-based theology inspired by Norse mythology, Asian mysticism, and pseudoscientific ideas about race. However, they could have dived further into the roots of this politico-religious movement in 19th-century theosophy...

    Singular

  11. #11
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,620

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry of Grosmont View Post

    Singular
    What? Sorry, did I pluralize something that shouldn't have been pluralized?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    What? Sorry, did I pluralize something that shouldn't have been pluralized?
    He's pointing out that they were still also using Christianity.

    EDIT: The buckle says "God with us"
    Last edited by sumskilz; February 21, 2015 at 09:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #13
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,620

    Default Re: Nazi Occultism and Ariosophy, religion of the SS

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    He's pointing out that they were still also using Christianity.

    EDIT: The buckle says "God with us"
    Well of course, most Germans were still Christians after all. It's funny how Hitler sponsored a pseudo theological research team to try and find out if Jesus wasn't actually a Jew.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •