# Thread: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

1. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Moneybags14 has already made a spreadsheet like this. You should talk to him and see what he has done. I don't know if it's finished or not.

2. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Originally Posted by k/t
Moneybags14 has already made a spreadsheet like this. You should talk to him and see what he has done. I don't know if it's finished or not.
I saw his stuff for Third Age, but I'm not a big excel expert. I'm better off just working with text files and a python program.

I do have an enormous amount of questions about the RC 2.0 guide though, I was hoping you could answer a few:

1. In the Units Size Table, there's a few combinations that do not have a fixed unit size, for example local spearmen (60 - 80), Are there any extra rules to get an exact number for each combination instead of a range of unit sizes? And if there aren't, could it be possible to change the guide to remove all the combinations which have a range and replace them with an exact number? (probably more of a question for PB)

2. Is there a cost algorithm? I looked at the one in your signature, but I don't think it's the official one.

3. In the Mount Categories Table, there's a column containing "Anim Applied for shuffle_backward". I was wondering what this is and how it effects combat?

4. If I read correctly, the mass of an infantry unit is determined by the average of its armor masses, and the mass of a mounted unit is determined by its horse. But there's also some modifiers depending on unit quality and unit class (skirmisher/missile). Do these effect both infantry and cavalry? And is the order of calculations as follows then? For infantry: first calculate average armor mass, convert to resulting mass, add quality and class modifiers, add final multiplier (2H or poleaxe). For cavalry: start with base horse mass, add quality and class modifiers.

5. Which projectile type do the composite crossbow, heavy composite crossbow and pavise crossbow use? I went with crossbow bolt for the composite crossbow and heavy crossbow bolt for the heavy composite crossbow and pavise crossbow but I'm not sure if they're the right ones.

6. Is the pilum a primary or a secondary weapon? Which animations does it use, I'm guessing the javelin ones? Does it also need the "prec" weapon attribute set? (makes unit throw secondary before charging)

7. Every weapon has its own movement speed animations (slow, med, fast). Are they given to units in the modelsdb file? Also, there seems to be no MTW2_Mace_Aggressive animation even though the slow and fast variant do exist. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not.

8. Which class do pikemen belong to? the infantry class or the spearmen class?

9. Not every possible horse name is included in the latest descr_mount? Is this just because they still need to be added, or because they aren't used? (for example Armoured Horse lancer charger doesn't appear in descr_mount, even though it's a viable horse name)

10. Am I right in thinking the +1, -1 anim modifiers for the mount categories only apply to the lancer, brawler and charger categories? and what happens if a -1 modifier has to be applied to the lancer animation? (charger - 1 = lancer, lancer - 1 = ?)

11. What is the difference between a lancer, charger and a brawler?

13. In the anim modifiers, there's a +1 modifier if the unit is Impetuous, but there's the Discipline level impetuous and the Optional Unit Type impetuous, which one is referred to?

12. Where in the EDU do I set x-radius and what is its default value?

13. How exactly are units given fire arrows? There's the projectile type for them but does that grant them the ability as well?

14. In the 1H and 2H melee weapons table, as above is used a few times for the animations, and the first animation has an agressive and no shield variant. Does this mean every 1H referencing to this weapon's animations has an agressive and no shield variant?

15. Which weapons fall under the spearmen class? And which weapons make a unit pikemen? Pike's probably do, but what about halberds, swordstaff's, ... . And are units with a 1H or 2H spear the only units that can be spearmen?

16. What exactly falls under the polearm class of weapons? (used for mass calculations)

17. There's a rule for multi layered armor and rustic weapons. I have no idea what makes armor multi-layered and what makes a weapon rustic, can you explain where and how these rules are used?

18. There's an unit type called bodyguard and an optional unit type called bodyguard. Is this intentional?

19. In the Master Armor Table, there's a mention of Kataphract armor, with special armor value and heat penalty. It also doesn't seem to appear in armor_ug_levels, can you explain how this armor type works?

20. Which sound should be made when Lamellar gets hit? flesh, leather or metal?

21. PB also added the Jack layer for all smith levels > 1, which gives some extra armor. Why aren't the armor values of all armors just increased instead?

22. In the mounted charge weapons tablen this line is found with all weapons, "Large Round or Kite Shield Attack -1", further on in the mounted shields table this line appears with large round and kite shields "Mounted Charge Weapons Attack -1". Are these the same or do they both need to be applied.

23. In the morale modifiers, chargers get +1 and brawlers get +2 morale, in the mount categories they also get those morale bonuses. Do they both need to be applied or are they the same?

24. In the geograhical origin heat table there's no mention of India and Africa, but in the Terrain modifiers there is (last 2 tables). Are there any heat penalties for units with African or Indian origin?

I've included the version of the guide I've been studying.

3. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Originally Posted by mana85
11. What is the difference between a lancer, charger and a brawler?
The only difference I've noticed in the mount file is the amount of mass the horses have. This most likely influences their charge attack.

Originally Posted by mana85
20. Which sound should be made when Lamellar gets hit? flesh, leather or metal?
Leather lamellar -> leather
Metal lamellar -> metal
I guess you need to check the unit's equipment ingame to determine the material they use.

Originally Posted by mana85
24. In the geograhical origin heat table there's no mention of India and Africa, but in the Terrain modifiers there is (last 2 tables). Are there any heat penalties for units with African or Indian origin?
I'd like to inquire about heat values as well. What heat values would be appropriate for Mesoamerican nations like the Aztects, Apaches and Mayas?

4. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

1) It depends on the circumstances. Units from cultures with a focus on cavalry would have only 60, while units from cultures with a focus on infantry would have 80. Things like that.

2) There is, but PB has it. Or had it. The one in my signature is one I came up with. I used it for my BC submod.

3) Cavalry movement in melee is tied to battlefield role and quality level. Ponies, horsearchers, horse javeliners, and Lancers back out of melee, Chargers don't move forward or backward, Brawlers move forward. The first group are not meant for melee combat, so they move away from it, Chargers are unspecialized, so they can do melee, but they're not excellent at it, and Brawlers move into the melee as that's their thing. High quality Chargers will move forward as well, while high quality Lancers will be stationary.

4) "For infantry: first calculate average armor mass, convert to resulting mass, add quality and class modifiers, add final multiplier (2H or poleaxe). For cavalry: start with base horse mass, add quality and class modifiers."

For infantry, yes. For cavalry, there is no quality modifier, but the quality will determine the animation type. Also, cavalry masses are determined by the mount, and as such they're not determined on a unit by unit basis. The mount is determined on a unit by unit basis, though. Each mount has a mount type and battlefield role, which get added together to find the mass of that particular mount. For example, an Eastern Horse has mass 2. A high quality unit riding Eastern Horse with the battlefield role of Lancer will have the mount "eastern horse charger lancer", with a mass of 2.25. The "charger" is the animation that will be used. An average quality unit riding Eastern Horse with the battlefield role of Brawler will have the mount "eastern horse brawler", with a mass of 1.75. It will move forward in melee. This is assuming it's a heavy cavalry unit. If it's a light cavalry unit, then it would be "eastern horse charger brawler". The mass would still be 1.75, but it would remain stationary in melee.

5) Yeah, that's good.

6) The pilum doesn't need to be in, really, since it wasn't used in the time frame we're looking at. PB put that and the gladius in because he wanted to extend the system for use in other mods. It would almost certainly use the javelin animation, and it would have to be the primary weapon. The missile weapon always has to be first in the M2 engine. "prec" is good, since that's how the pilum was used. If you're gonna put it on legionary units, they should get cannot_skirmish as well.

7) Yes, although I'm now questioning why certain armours have a speed penalty. If the armour worn already changes the animation in BMDB to "slow", for example, why slap an extra penalty on top of that? Unless the animation in BMDB doesn't determine walk speed but attack speed. I am not sure what it does at this point. I don't know why Mace doesn't have a "normal" animation. Perhaps because a light unit wouldn't move forward in melee. That's what the Aggressive animations do, by the way. They just have "shuffle_backward" set to "shuffle_forward", so the unit presses forward in melee, like cavalry Brawlers.

8) Spearmen.

9) It doesn't exist in descr_mount because no unit in EDU uses such a mount. Also, for that mount to exist, you'd need a light cavalry unit meant for charging that rode Armoured Horse. Any unit riding Armoured Horse would never be light cavalry, so, according to RC rules, such a mount cannot even exist. Maybe if it was a Bodyguard unit of Average quality, but Bodyguards are almost always Exceptional, with some being Elite. So, long story short, there is no point in cluttering descr_mount with every conceivable combination. Only the ones actually required are put in.

10) Yes. Nothing. Lancer - 1 = Lancer. Think of the movement instead of the role. You have three possibilities: move forward, idle, move backward. Moving backward is the most a unit can do to move away from the melee. Just like an Elite, Impetuous Brawler can only move forward. That's the most it can do to advance.

11) http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post10947933 - post #95

12) It comes after the mass. The default is 1, I think.

soldier Armored_Sergeants, 80, 0, 1.25, 0.3

13) Missile type works like the mount. If there is a corresponding fiery version of a particular missile type combination, any unit with that missile type will be able to use the fiery version. I remove fire arrows from my submods because siege equipment shouldn't be easy to set fire to and because the AI will use the fire arrows during night battles. I remember someone (Phosphoricus ?) was trying to use the fire arrows function to implement a close range arrow type with increased mass and accuracy.

14) Perhaps. I'd check before assigning it, just to make sure there won't be any errors. Just do a quick search in descr_skeleton.

15) 1H spearmen, 2H spearmen and pikemen are all classified as "spearmen". Only pikes make pikemen (they have the "pike" attribute, for starters, as well as "spear, long_pike" as weapon attributes. All other polearms are "infantry", although phalanx ones will get the "light_spear" attribute.

16) Everything on a pole that's not a 1H spear or a 2H axe.

17) Multiple armour layers = multi-layer. Cataphracts have heavy mail + lamellar + gambeson. Rustic are low quality weapons that weren't meant for combat. Peasant units will usually have these.

18) Where?

19) I don't know what PB did with it, but in the EDU he added in the RC 2 download, the Scholarii have 28 as their initial armour, which is Late Lamellar. The way I calculated cataphract armour in BC was "gambeson 1 + heavy mail 6 + lamellar 7 + gambeson 2 + quality 1+1 + cataphract horse 7". I gave the initial gambeson 1 instead of folding it in the 6 of the heavy mail because it would be thicker than a regular gambeson. Maybe I should have subtracted 1 from the 7 of the lamellar. Oh well.

20) Metal.

21) I don't remember how he decided which to add 1 to, but I didn't follow suit. I still use the older values, since the original RC guide specified that the armour values include a leather jerkin underneath the metal armour.

22) They're the same information, but listed for both gear types.

23) Same as above.

24) Where did you get that file? I added lines like those in a file I was using for my BC submod, but now I can't find it anywhere (I had a hard drive crash in September and lost a lot of things).

Originally Posted by mana85
Do you guys assign attributes from the guide to all units according to their description and look and then calculate their stats according to the modifiers corresponding with their attributes? It seems like an incredibly amount of work if it's all done by hand.
Yes. Yes it is. But it's great when it's done. And it's fun to do. Although you start wishing modders would just freaking incorporate RC from the beginning, so you can play the mod instead of modding it. That's one of the reasons for which I volunteered to help Tsardoms.

5. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions!

1) My problem is that a computer needs a cold hard algorithm to follow, which I don't have for the 60-80, ... unit sizes. If the train of thought when deciding if a unit gets the bigger unit size or not can be written in terms of "this unit's faction has an aptitude for infantry, so it gets the bigger infantry size", I can program that. Otherwise, The unit size will need to be entered upfront instead of being calculated. So the question is, is it a simple process to determine the unit size when a range is given, or is it more on a feeling basis with too many factors to easily convert into an algorithm?

2) I'll implement the cost stuff last. I'll implement your algorithm for testing purposes if PB still isn't back by then. I read over it and it seemed like a logical way to calculate costs.

3) So the only things influencing a cavalry unit's mass is its mount and its mount_category?

17) How does armour work in the guide then? You assign a unit multiple layers of base armour independent of armour upgrades, or does the multi layer aspect only come into action when a unit gets an armor upgrade?

18) In the file I posted, there's a bodyguard entry for the usual unit types. Then further down there's a table containing optional unit types, which also contains the bodyguard entry.

24) Got the file in the Eliminating AP thread further down, I think it was the latest RC 2.0 guide posted by PB.

6. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

1) Just put the lower one and then a note in the user guide to manually change those units to whatever he wants. Or just put two categories, Small (60) and Large (80), and the user can select the one he wants in each case.

2) Let me give you a more recent cost file I came up with and which I found recently. I don't know if I posted it already or not. Scroll down past the ########## to where it says "SUPS 2". https://www.mediafire.com/?v0b2ywu1z5zxdu8

3) Yeah.

17) If a unit has multiple layers (this was common in BC - take a look at the EDU for my submod), I added the individual values for each layer. There are also heat, attack and defense penalties for multi layer armour. Cataphracts ended up with about 19 or 20 heat and -3 defense. If it's an infantry unit, the mass increases as well. If we look at Scholarii, they get a double upgrade because they have two metal armours on them, so each one gets upgraded.

18) You're looking at different things. The first table you're referring to is the unit size table. The second one is the modifiers table. Of course the Bodyguard has an entry in each. The first table tells you the size of Bodyguard units, the second that Bodyguard units get -2 Attack and +2 Defense, since their purpose is to keep the general alive.

7. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

I checked the latest EDU from PB and figured out how he calculated a few armours. I think I have a pretty good idea of how it works now. Still a few things that remain weird.

The heat penalties / agility defense bonusses / ... are calculated as an average over all armour upgrades. How do multi-layer armours figure into this? Do I have to take each base layer as an armour upgrade as well? So have 2 base layers and 2 upgrades I'd have to sum them up and divide by 4?

In PB's latest EDU, chivalric knights have 16 armor, while (French) Lancers have a whopping 29. Is the difference supposed to be that big?

Any idea what PB means with "Only one layer can be worn?"

***Unless otherwise noted all armor with a Smith level required >1 includes a 'jack' underpadding, which, if it were by itself, would have the following stats
Jack (worn under other) 0 0 1 1 Fast(1) +3 Light(1) 0
Only one layer can be worn. It does NOT get quality bonus for Elite wearer etc, its always just armor 1***

In the formations table for cavalry there's an entry for javelin cavalry, an entry for other and an entry for western charge cavalry. Can I assume that western Charge Cavalry encompasses everything with a couched lance?

8. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

No, the multi layer armours would have the heat for each layer added together. That's why Scholarii have 19 heat in the last EDU PB posted.

The biggest problem I have with PB's work is that he doesn't show how he arrived to each number in detail (look at my EDUs for contrast), so there are always a lot of people asking "why is this like that?". I had a fun time deciphering the formulas for TATW by working backwards...

Chivalric Knights have 15 armour, not 16. Maybe you found a newer EDU, in which he added that 1 jack stuff. Anyway, Partial Plate 11 + quality 2 + Barded Horse 2 = 15.

Lancers = Gothic Plate 15 + quality 1 + Improved Metallurgy 2 + Greater Armour Thickness 2 + French Armoured Horse 8 = 28. Yeah, you definitely found a newer EDU.

He means that a soldier can only have one of those jacks on him. Scholarii aren't going to get +2 to their armour because of a jack under the mail and a jack under the lamellar.

Yes. If it's Western.

Now that I look again at Lancers, why do they have Defense 3? Longsword 5 + Elite Mounted 1 - Reckless 2 = 4. Why would Impetuous stack with Reckless? Their melee attack is 13 -> Longsword 5 + Elite Mounted 5 + quality 1 + Reckless 2 = 13. There is no Impetuous on top of Reckless. Reckless is just the next level of Impetuous.

Also, why do they only have 16 Charge? They get +4 for being "Lancer". There is no lance with 12 Charge. They're most likely using Heavy Lance, so they should have 19 Charge. And why do they have 8 lance attack?

Yes, this is my gripe with PB's work. Also he said he would upload the new version of the Compilation "within a week" back in January, but I know modding is time consuming and he has a job and a family, so I can't hold that against him. I just hope I get to play it eventually.

9. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Why does unit quality influence heat? Some half-naked Aztec Peasants that are accustomed to hard labour in a hot climate like Mesoamerica shouldn't have a higher heat value than warriors wearing an animal pelt, should they?

10. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Yes. If it's Western.
Are there any non Western units that use couched lances then?

Let me go over armour 1 more time, Lets assume we have a unit with lamellar and heavy mail and 3 armor upgrades. The guide gives the following example:

###EXAMPLE: The unit has armor upgrades 0, 1, 4, 12
Heat = (0+3+5+7)/4 = 3.75 => 4.
Move Anim = (1+1+2+2)/4 = 1.5 = 1 => Fast
Agility Defense Bonus = (3+2+1+1)/4 = 1.75 => +2 defense
Terrain Penalty = (1+1+2+2)/4 = 1.5 = 1 => Light Infantry
Mass = (0+1+2+3)/4 = 1.5 = 1 => base mass 0.7 (from UNIT MASS table on first page)###
Only armor upgrade 12 has the +15 Attack Delay (ie only 1 of 4 upgrades), so this is not applied.

So for the base armour, I have to add heat values together, take the slowest move rate of all base armours, take the highest terrain penalties of all base armours, add the masses together and take the highest attack delay. Then I have to factor in the modifiers for multi layer armour (base attack, heat penalty and attack delay). Then, when I have all the stats of the base armour calculated. I average out heat, terrain, move anim, mass, and agility defense bonus over all armour upgrades.

Now that I think about it, calculating all the averages with multi layer armour is a whole new horror. Since I'd need to know which armour gets upgraded and recalculate all the stats to figure out the armour stats to average with. I think that for now, I'm going to leave out the whole averages over all armour upgrades and just calculate base stats. armour upgrades will just give the +2 armour with nothing else attached to it.

Why does unit quality influence heat? Some half-naked Aztec Peasants that are accustomed to hard labour in a hot climate like Mesoamerica shouldn't have a higher heat value than warriors wearing an animal pelt, should they?
Quality represents a unit's overal physique/healthiness, I think a well fed, strong, healthy aztec warrior would do better in warm environments than some poor half-starved peasant.

11. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

The peasants weren't half-starved. -.-

Quality represents a unit's level of training. The heat stat affects how quickly a unit gets tired. A well-trained unit that is accustomed to handling weapons will tire less quickly than one with less training.

I give the highest terrain penalties (if this is infantry we're talking about) automatically to multi layer armour troops. I give the attack delay penalty for every layer that has it and an extra 15 for multi layer. I calculate mass based on the heaviest layer and add 0.1 for each additional layer. I don't bother with averaging anything - I always base everything on the heaviest upgrade, since eventually troops will obtain it.

Multi layer armour doesn't need to be averaged out with its upgrades, unless its upgrades are going to be another type of armour. Scholarii have the Improved Metallurgy upgrade, which doesn't do anything other than give +2 to each metal layer. They have the same armour as before, but made of better metal.

There are non-Western units with couched lances (well, I had some in BC), but I used the Other unit spacing for them.

12. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Originally Posted by k/t
The heat stat affects how quickly a unit gets tired.
So heat is actually nothing more than stamina. I thought heat means if a unit is accustomed to hot climate.
Besides, peasants are used to heavy labour with tools, so why should they tire more quickly when using maces instead of rakes? I understand that peasants are undisciplined and undrilled, but they are not weaklings like scholars.

By the way, what is that x-radius value for? Can I actually use it in export_descr_unit (it's not mentioned as a usable value) or is it a reference to the animations file?

13. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Heat is not stamina. Stamina is determined by the "hardy" and "very_hardy" attributes.

Units from warm places get a bonus to heat (so a reduction of the value), while units from colder places get a penalty. Raking and fighting are two different things, swinging a mace is not like gathering leaves, and the physical and mental intensity of combat really drain you. Someone who has been trained for it will do much better than someone who hasn't. You can always give the peasants a stamina attribute to make them last longer.

It gives the soldiers a smaller footprint, so they can stand closer together and enter gaps between enemies better. Of course you can. Study an existing RC EDU so you can see.

14. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Originally Posted by k/t
It gives the soldiers a smaller footprint, so they can stand closer together and enter gaps between enemies better. Of course you can. Study an existing RC EDU so you can see.
Apparently, the unit radius is a hidden value and has to be added after the unit mass. Entering a radius value doesn't lead to a crash, so it seems to be correct.

I've noticed two other problems:
1) Why do mounted units get an area attack? It catapults hit troops into the air which looks ridiculous.

2) Where can I find the delay values for ranged weapons and what about the special fire delay field? Arquebuses with a reloading speed of 5 seconds are highly unrealistic.

15. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

I've made good progress converting the guide into a format that can be read by the computer. Unfortunately, Uni has started again and this is the busiest trimester of them all, so I'm not going to get any work in until Uni's finished. Luckily I've aced my exams until now, so i'll have plenty of time during holidays to work on the stat generator

16. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Mounted units do not get an area attack.

If you want to add something several days after your last post, make a new one instead of editing the old one, so the thread shows a new post and people will click on it.

No rush, mana.

17. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

Originally Posted by k/t
Mounted units do not get an area attack.
In my RCM 2 file, all mounted projectile weapons get an area attack. However, that flying people syndrome only happens when I use mounted gunpowder cavalry. Neither the unit nor the projectile have the launching ability. Strange.

Recently, I've started work on a LibreOffice Calc table that contains RCM 2 as well as the unit stats table for all Kingdoms campaigns: https://spideroak.com/browse/share/D...oda/MIITW-RCM2
Of course, it only has a handful of units at the moment, but it will grow. If anyone finds any problems or wants to suggest corrections, please feel free to contact me.

19. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

My table will be a bit more ambitious. Not only will it contain all the Kingdoms units with RCM 2 stats, but also much more info like unit quality, origin, abilities, delay, priority etc.
By filling my table with information, I'll be able to easily put it into the EDU so that I can enjoy the game with the superior RCM 2 stats.

20. ## Re: Questions regarding the RC unit statistics scheme/system

I've stumbled upon some new problems.

1. What kind of stats should a macuahuitl have? It seems to be a short wooden paddle with extremely sharp obsidian razors at both sides.
Suggestion: Attack 4, Charge 2, Defense 4, Delay 50, Heat 1, 0,45 x-radius, slashing
The tepoztli received the same stats as a western, one-handed axe without ap capabilities, but with -1 to attack.
I have treated that macana cudgel the Mesoamerican peasants are using like a one-handed mace.

2. How am I supposed to find out which kinds of armour upgrade a unit has? For example, standard peasants are wearing some kind of cloth armour (is that a jack?) while peasants with an armour upgrade seem to wear some kind of leather armour (or is it a gambeson?).
The rodeleros seem to have the following armour upgrades: light mail -> heavy mail -> breastplate or Renaissance quarter plate?
Do you know if someone has made a list with all units and their armour upgrades? I wasn't able to find anything like that.

3. Cavalry seems to be real troublesome. I don't understand the basic mounts table. Do I need to add the horse mass to the unit mass in EDU or does the game handle that automatically?
And what is that weird one called "MELEE and CHARGE WEAPON SPECIAL CONDITIONS EFFECTS MODIFIERS" there for?

Sorry to bug with my never-ending amount of questions.

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