[Development] First Faction Map concepts

[Mr.Jox]

- I look after the factions map. I thought it was bold but in fact I think it's maybe uselessly complicated. I would prefer more scripted events (as rebellion events for Morgul Vale) than an autonomus Morgul Vale. I would prefer prefer less factions personnaly. For exemple (the following questions should been applied to all the new factions), what will be the aims of Orcs of Morgul factions ?

- They will entrave the passage of Mordor players troops.

- They may be frustrating for Mordor player by entraving his troops movement or taking the city that mordor should keep.

- I don't see lore justification for this protectorate. Orcs of Morgul Vale should just belong to Mordor no ?

- Are we sure that the A.I will well manage these small lands ? Would not it been better for the human player to have versus him bigger empire, with some cities ? I say that because in Medieval Total War II it was hard for A.I to manage alliances or discontinued empire. Does Attila will manage it well ?

Hold on, hold on. Can you see Morgul in first release faction list? Nope.

[Jojo_Fr]

Yes I don't see it.

But what is the interest to do this, to take out this region to the Mordor player ? Is that based on lore ? Maybe I don't see the lore justification because I lack of culture of Third Age.

[Mr.Jox]

Well I'm not sure it's lore decision but we wanted Morgul to control whole Ithilien region plus Morgul-Vale.
In any case it's not accepted(at least yet).

[Alkar]

I like the idea of breaking the factions up in some cases. Some should remain whole, but an alliance of factions tends to be more challenging to fight in Rome II then a single large faction. In the case of misty mountain Orcs, moria, blue mountains I really like the idea of several small factions over just lumping them all into Misty Mountain Orcs. They will tend to field a larger number of armies that way, forcing more defensive play which fits in my opinion.

As for gondor, would a client state / satrapy system not work? So long as their AI's weren't expansionist and fulfill a more defensive / provide income to gondor role. Umbar would need to be setup to apply enough pressure on them that they were unlikely to expand. And if setup properly the imperium system that limits the number of armies you may field would keep gondor players from just taking over their client states.

The ent's being their own faction is a good idea, as long as they weren't expansionist but were responsive to war coordination targeting once allied. It'd suck to not be able to directly control them but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd like them lumped into one of the other factions.

I think there are a lot of tools available within the rome II engine to make breaking down factions something worth considering.

The shire as a non playable client state to eriador would be fine.

I like that you've not lumped all the Clans into Isenguard as well, when i played them in TATW i generally just built Orcs and wasn't a fan of dunland and the other clans just being rebels, I kind of like the idea of isenguard having them as allies. Fits the lore better.

What you talk of is the Medieval feudal system. Every Kingdom is composed of numerous smaller entities united under the King for his protection, in this case, the Steward. Kingdoms can in turn have subservient kingdoms who are under the domain of another kingdom for protection or because of being conquered.

[Alkar]

Here are some very interesting Middle-earth maps:

http://lotrproject.com/map/#zoom=3&l...yers=BTTTTTTTT (this one is the best out there by far)

http://lindefirion.net/maps/PeoplesOfMiddleEarth.jpg

http://nd06.jxs.cz/060/048/7853e63a99_95578455_o2.jpg

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...Shadowtest.jpg

http://ponungeologentuvida.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/map.jpg

[Mr.Jox]

Today we started baking our Middle-Earth factions over Europe map.
All concepts are appreciated.
Here's Europe map from Attila with region structure. Just apply regions to factions shown in faction symbols preview.

ATTILA MAP

[Cpt. Cortes]

Mr. J one question, Its possible to remove regions out of the map? You removed Africa and Spain from your map in the preview, but, its possibe? How? I was trying that for a mod since a long time, without success.

[Mr.Jox]

Mr. J one question, Its possible to remove regions out of the map? You removed Africa and Spain from your map in the preview, but, its possibe? How? I was trying that for a mod since a long time, without success.

I know for sure we can make red zones heightmap completively flat and then put it under water. We also can desolate settlements in red zone and I believe we can disable AI.

[Alkar]

With client states more armies can be kept(army limit, income boost per faction) and the ai can't handle being a big nation most of the time, so I would prefer more client states. They don't have to be fleshed out they can just be clones of the playable factions.
Lots of small tribes for the orcs of misty mountains would also bring some variation in that area. I imagine there would be some infighting between those orcs and that they would only unite if they face a big threat ( the dwarves or elves), the confederation option would work well here( if it's still in Attila), the infighting doesn't have to be out of control if they have a big cultural affinity bonus with each other.

Yes, Orks often skirmished and clashed, even a little when they were under a Power (such as Saruman and Sauron).

[Alkar]

The plan is we not going to make all factions playable About DA. I read that Princes of DA swore to serve to kings/stewards of gondor. We cant split gondor on such many factions coz it wont be gondor in that way And DA has no logical and tactical position(except maybe umbar). Southrons and Haradrim the same on different languages?

"Southron" is a generic term for any people of the South of Middle-earth.

dont split factions in too manny seperate ones if they are not unique,and what if you wanted to play as shire and then wouldnt have hobbiton,they are preety much the same,what is going to be a difference betwen them.and i think that dol amorth should be with gondor,and morgul with mordor

He said Shire and Breeland, not the Shire separated .

[Cpt. Cortes]

Okay, thanks for the info!

[nordherogaming]

I am so pissed off at CA. I'm speechless. Look at M2TW and how better and customizable the engine was! It even had better quality combat and many more features than the recent Total Wars! We need to start a CA riot to make them give us the modding tools we need! It's like every next Total War game is becoming worst and worst just with better graphics. RIOTTTTTTT

[Grimnir]

It's not that easy to give us the modding tools we need, because it takes months to develop them and these people of course have to be paid, and the modding tools are free of course. Mr J. has talked about that enough, just search a bit in our forum and you'll quickly find some post. However, I agree with you, that they could have made a better engine xP, something that is more modding friendly.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Plus the map, for example, is much more complex than in Medieval II.

[OldStyle]

I'm all for Small unplayable factions as satrapies idea...

the big factions make the world look empty and give illusion of power when there is none... besides middle earth was anything but united most regions in the kingdoms ruled themselves with barely even recognizing kings power... take Rohan for example, only the king's son listened to him and he's dead when we get to Rohan and Rohan is the most united of the Human kingdoms. Same with Gondor where Minas Trith only controls the immediate surroundings of Minas tirith and pretends to rule whole Gondor when in fact the support of Lords and princes depends on the good will of those lords and the necessity of situation so yea more like satrapies.

Arnor is not even a kingdom at this point... Dunedain control some land and the three post Arnor kingdoms are very weak and controlled by hostile men with questionable intentions, Bree land and Shire are like hubs of life in a dead kingdom.

It's even possible to make 1 of those 3 kingdoms satrapy of Bree. another Satrapy of Dunedain and the 3rd one leaning towards the Antagonists. Or just make 1 of those kingdoms overlord of the other 2 with bree and Dunedain independent.

Dunedain short Campaing could be Restorning the kingdom of Arnor with the Conquest of those lands + Bree, and then we could get Arnor. Basically the Recepie for arnor is the Land of Arnor + Dunedain kings blood.


also one small idea If I may... there are lots of old ruins in middle earth.. it would be nice if we get options to restore some of those. like if elves take Eregion for example.. or Arnor with Arnuminas and Ost Guruth... as well as Osgiliath which is a ruin/military camp. or Ruin of Anuminas can be a low level location itself.. you upgrade ruin to village/small town etc to eventually Annuminas which would be final level..

[Mr.Jox]

Hi.
I said few times and I say it again. Do you see how much time it takes us to create units for current faction list? Some factions even not started yet. Do you imagine how much time it will take us to create a lot of small factions? The process of creating units is difficult and long. We've choosed the best way of creating quaity units as same as game developers do. So creating a lot of small USELESS factions is pointless at this point or even future plans as well.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I think, if one make a Rhudaur-faction to example, it wouldn´t have enough unique units, maybe one or two. But If one make Arnor/Dunedain they would have much more unique units and would be imo more interesting.

[Alkar]

I'm all for Small unplayable factions as satrapies idea...

the big factions make the world look empty and give illusion of power when there is none... besides middle earth was anything but united most regions in the kingdoms ruled themselves with barely even recognizing kings power... take Rohan for example, only the king's son listened to him and he's dead when we get to Rohan and Rohan is the most united of the Human kingdoms. Same with Gondor where Minas Trith only controls the immediate surroundings of Minas tirith and pretends to rule whole Gondor when in fact the support of Lords and princes depends on the good will of those lords and the necessity of situation so yea more like satrapies.

Arnor is not even a kingdom at this point... Dunedain control some land and the three post Arnor kingdoms are very weak and controlled by hostile men with questionable intentions, Bree land and Shire are like hubs of life in a dead kingdom.

It's even possible to make 1 of those 3 kingdoms satrapy of Bree. another Satrapy of Dunedain and the 3rd one leaning towards the Antagonists. Or just make 1 of those kingdoms overlord of the other 2 with bree and Dunedain independent.

Dunedain short Campaing could be Restorning the kingdom of Arnor with the Conquest of those lands + Bree, and then we could get Arnor. Basically the Recepie for arnor is the Land of Arnor + Dunedain kings blood.


also one small idea If I may... there are lots of old ruins in middle earth.. it would be nice if we get options to restore some of those. like if elves take Eregion for example.. or Arnor with Arnuminas and Ost Guruth... as well as Osgiliath which is a ruin/military camp. or Ruin of Anuminas can be a low level location itself.. you upgrade ruin to village/small town etc to eventually Annuminas which would be final level..

Don't worry, there are plans to incorporate scripted and unscripted missions to restore particular cities, kingdoms, etc. On this note I believe there are also plans to incorporate Wonders which give bonuses, such as the Gate of Kings (Argonath). Am I right in this Mr. J?

[Mr.Jox]

Absolutely.

[Belisarius_]

If the campaign map is hardcoded into the game, how did CA manage the altered The Last Roman DLC map? There must be a way around this. It's probably much easier said than done though. Just a curiosity.