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Thread: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

  1. #1

    Default What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Just downloaded SS recently, and I noticed two things about unit types immediately:

    1. Pikes dropped secondary weapon so they use pikes only, and yet they are not over-powered but reasonably balanced. How was this achieved?

    2. 2Hs looks very strong, perhaps even stronger than they should be.

    How were these changes achieved?

  2. #2

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Some of the pike changes are:
    -secondary weapon removed, as you note
    -animations heavily altered, for example pikes level on approach to opponent, defensive animations have been removed, times to turn left and right are increased, movements in combat forward and backward altered, 'aggressive' pike anims further altered, attack frequency and speed reduced
    -formation integrity altered based on training level
    -horizontal separation between pikemen based on quality level
    -separation depth based on quality level
    -pike weapon attributes reflect relative effectiveness vs inf and cav
    -pike defense stats further reduced
    -above contributes to flank and rear vulnerability
    -pikes are heavy as reflected in heat stat
    -unit marching speed altered by unit quality
    -pike terrain effects customised

    That's off the top of my head after over a year of absence.

    For the 2-handers, some changes are: the animations have been extensively updated and tuned to the weapons, weapon use radii reflect space needed for effective employment and tactical function of that particular unit (eg some 2H sword units are specialists vs pikes), stats depict 2H common use as assault/shock units that deliver powerful attacks but often suffer in prolonged melee.

    As I said have a look at the RC Guide and animation file if you can. The animations used in RC are a crucial aspect.

    Note that attack values reflect both damage delivered to a target (standardized to Joules delivered to a point), weapon weighting bias and its implications vs target agility, and method of employment. These work in hand with the animations.

    Germanicu5's BattleAI is also a valuable contributing factor I think.
    Last edited by Point Blank; January 13, 2015 at 11:14 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Some of the pike changes are:
    -secondary weapon removed, as you note
    -animations heavily altered, for example pikes level on approach to opponent, defensive animations have been removed, times to turn left and right are increased, movements in combat forward and backward altered, 'aggressive' pike anims further altered, attack frequency and speed reduced
    -formation integrity altered based on training level
    -horizontal separation between pikemen based on quality level
    -separation depth based on quality level
    -pike weapon attributes reflect relative effectiveness vs inf and cav
    -pike defense stats further reduced
    -above contributes to flank and rear vulnerability
    -pikes are heavy as reflected in heat stat
    -unit marching speed altered by unit quality
    -pike terrain effects customised

    That's off the top of my head after over a year of absence.

    For the 2-handers, some changes are: the animations have been extensively updated and tuned to the weapons, weapon use radii reflect space needed for effective employment and tactical function of that particular unit (eg some 2H sword units are specialists vs pikes), stats depict 2H common use as assault/shock units that deliver powerful attacks but often suffer in prolonged melee.

    As I said have a look at the RC Guide and animation file if you can. The animations used in RC are a crucial aspect.

    Note that attack values reflect both damage delivered to a target (standardized to Joules delivered to a point), weapon weighting bias and its implications vs target agility, and method of employment. These work in hand with the animations.

    Germanicu5's BattleAI is also an important factor I think.
    Absolutely amazing and detailed. Thank you!

    Unfortunately, I do not understand how animation files work; so I am not sure looking at them will help much. Bu your written explanations suffice for now.

  4. #4

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    P.S. Is there a way to decrease or increase ranged firing speed easily for neophytes like myself?

    For instance, crossbows still fire too rapidly to my taste, relative to longbows or composite bows.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Missile weapons have an animation sequence divided into phases, eg a bow is (from memory) something like draw->aim->release->reload. Javelins are similar. Crossbows have (memory again) 3 phases that are in a different order such that the *reload phase is first*.

    It is possible to alter the length or speed of each phase to change the total time for each 'shooting cycle'. RC1.0 does this for every type of missile weapon. RC2.0 does it better and as far as possible shoot/fire cycle times reflect historical realities.

    The primary time-dependent phase should of course be reloading. Using the tools I had available this was changed as much as could be done. Unfortunately with some animations changing it beyond a certain point causes discontinuities in the animation sequencing. This was *especially* the case with crossbows (and some firearms). I compensated by altering other parts of the sequence to a point just before it began to affect the visuals (eg heavy crossbows and some firearms take some time to bring to firing position).

    If you compare shooting cycle times for crossbows (which have 3-4 types and corresponding animation sets) with bows you will find less disparity between bow 'skirmish' units that take longer to aim (greater accuracy and other aspects factored in) and bow 'missile' units that shoot as rapidly as possible, with attendant bonuses/penalties.

    So for crossbows, unlike bows they have to perform a lengthy reload sequence before they can even shoot. Combined with their shorter range and the skirmish mechanics of the engine and the above factors there are limits unfortunately.

    Attempts to re-sequence crossbow anims were not successful.
    Last edited by Point Blank; January 13, 2015 at 11:15 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Note that some of the above-mentioned changes to pikes are RC2.0, or improved in 2.0.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Note that some of the above-mentioned changes to pikes are RC2.0, or improved in 2.0.
    Got it. Pikes currently seem okay, though I may improve them slightly. As I said elsewhere, for cavalry, I will likely add an extra HP and reduce their manpower dramatically and see if that represents a better marriage of balance and realism.

  8. #8
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Missile weapons have an animation sequence divided into phases, eg a bow is (from memory) something like draw->aim->release->reload. Javelins are similar. Crossbows have (memory again) 3 phases that are in a different order such that the *reload phase is first*.
    Is it possible to implement crossbows having no "reload phase is first"?

    As if they come prepared on the battlefield to see the enemy come in range, then aim, shoot after which comes the reload?
    I tried this once some time ago, but all I ever achieved was completely removing the reload part or just messing up everything completely

  9. #9

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Attempts to re-sequence crossbow anims were not successful.

  10. #10
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Attempts to re-sequence crossbow anims were not successful.
    Well while lurking/asking about this a year ago, I actually was directed to this submod;

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...se-17-08-08%29
    (Animation changes section; 2) "Crossbowmen fire first then reload."


    ...which actually, by the claims of the creator and the people that used it, had a properly working animation set with crossbows firing first and then reloading.
    This was first achieved by giving the crossbowmen the gunmen trait that allowed them to fire only one rank at a time, however this was later constantly tweaked along with the animations themselves to allow the crossbowmen to fire all at once.
    While reading through the thread one can clearly see that at first the animations had bugs and problems but they were mostly fixed and the animation polished.


    Alas, the links for the files are down since 2009, the creator is long gone and nobody else has the files

    It is a shame that the creator of the mod was permanently banned
    Last edited by +Marius+; January 14, 2015 at 04:10 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    I recall those, he was good with animations. They were a bit clunky. I may have seen them before they were perfected. Would be good to find them.

  12. #12

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Have you tried sending him an email?

  13. #13
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Have you tried sending him an email?
    Yes, repeatedly over the last 11 months

  14. #14

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Have you tried hiring an investigator and a hacker to track him down so he could come home one day and you would be there, sitting in his computer chair, slowly swiveling around with a glass in one hand and petting your white cat with the other, saying "Mr. Banzai!, you are a hard man to find."?

  15. #15
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    "But Mr. Marius, don't you understand? All this time, you searched for the animations, only to fail in the realization that the animations were inside you all along."

    *Animations burst out from my chest and I die screaming whilst spraying my blood all over Banzai's room*

  16. #16

  17. #17

    Default Re: What did you do with pikes and 2Hs?

    Let's hope it doesn't come to that!

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