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Thread: Portuguese History

  1. #21
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    My two cents, another (true) stereotype: Really polite people.

  2. #22
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Gentlemen,

    just a gentle reminder that this is not the TD nor the ULO, please keep this thread on topic and within the borders of a historical discussion, otherwise I'll move this someplace more befitting the discussion.

    Thank-you.


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  3. #23
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Tankfriend, when I said gold I was saying the Brazilian Gold, because as I said before, the major imports from Africa were: gold, slaves, pepper and ivory.
    In 1498 our Vasco da Gama reached India and in 1500 wefound Brazil. But still the development was at different "times"

  4. #24

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I was struck by the toughness of the adventurers there, who smashed their way into economic dominance over the existing trade network. Its not like Europeans had superior tech or anything, they were just hard individuals. I guess being crowded into the corner of Iberia with competing Christian and Moorish polities all crowding one another made for strong survival skills.
    The technological gap is one of those mystery questions that will never really get answered, I guess. From what I can tell from the contemporary accounts of the early Portuguese colonial era that I've read so far, it seems to have been a factor to some degree.

    For instance, reports about naval engagements against ships of comparable size and power as the Portuguese ones are rare, while you can find a number of engagements where a small number of Portuguese ships is being attacked by a very large number (usually around 60-80; could be exaggerated by the authors, of course) of much smaller boats. And the results of those engagements were apparently not really consistent, either. Sometimes, the Portuguese soundly beat the boats, sometimes they retreated without being clearly beaten themselves. A similar tendency can be found in other engagements, where it is pointed out that the opposing side had a number of larger ships at their disposal, too. So, even though they technically had the advantage of the much larger and more powerful ships, it wasn't always as clear-cut as that. Then again, the Portuguese also rarely lost any major naval engagements, either, so... who knows how big the technological gap was in this regard?
    On another note, one can also find that it wasn't uncommon for Portuguese - or Europeans, in general - to work for the local rulers, as mercenaries, advisors etc. And the mercenaries seem to have been paid well above the going rate for higher-class soldiers in some areas, too, which does point to somewhat of a heightened interest in European mercenaries by the local rulers. But whether that was for their technological knowledge, military abilities, or something else, is yet again inconclusive. There's pointers to either side, like some people claiming to have such knowledge to improve their position, while other Europeans were reportedly employed in ways where in-depth knowledge of firearms, for example, was less of a factor (e.g. as cavalry commanders).

    One interesting theory regarding the Portuguese naval superiority in Asia that I've read goes somewhat along the lines of the Atlantic and Mediterranean powers - including the Portuguese - having a much stronger tradition of naval warfare, and being far more accustomed with the idea of "owning" and controlling areas of the sea, as well as applying force through the navy - concepts that were supposedly pretty much foreign in Asia, as the Asian naval powers that did exist had either lost their importance by the time the Portuguese showed up, or only came to power later.
    Last edited by Tankfriend; January 12, 2015 at 12:22 PM.

  5. #25
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Bloody Right! You got it! If I could I would give you +rep

  6. #26
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Many moons ago...
    Portugal - Faction Thread
    .....
    The Portuguese in Japan - Total War Center

    --------
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankfriend View Post
    School books around the globe only ever give you a small fraction of the whole picture, for simplicity's sake.
    Indeed.Well, recommended reading : The Portuguese Empire,1415-1808 A World on the Move. AJ Russel-Wood. John Hopkins.
    It's an amazing book. So it begins...
    " By the way of introduction, let me began with two anecdotes. One day at breakfast, my older son Christopher (aged 11) announced: " Daddy, I want to be a historian". Unprepared for this conversational gambit so early in the day, undiplomatically but spontaneously, I replied:" Good God.Why?" To which he rejoined: "Because there is so much action" He was right of course. This is the appeal of history: people, a plot, and action. The unfailing attraction which the history of Portugal holds for me lies in the unceasing ebb and flow of people,commodities, flora and fauna, ideas, and influences, with the globe as their stage..."


    -----------
    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus View Post
    In the mid 17th century, when the power of the Spanish Empire drastically declined (having been the most powerful in Europe under Philip II)...Spain was unable to restore royal power in Portugal. Regardless of whether it was a priority, this was unachievable by this stage. John IV claimed continuation from the previous royal dynasty, and Portugal reverted to being an independent kingdom. There is 1,000 years of Iberian history in a paragraph... if it helps!
    Right... the height of the Spanish power was reached during the period of the Iberian union. From Filipe II to Filipe IV, Spain was almost constantly at war. Overcommitment in Europe strained its resources beyond their limits. As Robert Watson put in 1783: "Her power corresponded not with her inclination".
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 13, 2015 at 06:34 PM.
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  7. #27
    FrancMor13's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Yes, and because of the lack of "spanish" resources, Spain started to use our resources, a huge percentage of our navy went to help Spain with their invasions, and even he Invencible Armada had portuguese ships. And when Phillip the IV started to not respect the grandfather's compromise to mantain our autonomy. And after that they also negligected cataluña's region and then we took our chance to beat them out of Portugal. After we acclaimed John the IV of Braganza as our King, the war to regain our independence completely lasted 28 years, in spite of our "first act" of indepedence was on December 1st 1640.

  8. #28
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    he Invencible Armada had portuguese ships.
    War at Sea, 1500-1650, Maritime Conflicts and the Transformation of Europe, Jan Glete
    Up to the late 16th century, the Spanish state relied on hired and requisitioned merchantmen to form fleets in the Atlantic. Apparently this solved the administrative problem of recruiting sailors. When the state began to create a sailing navy, the scarcity of skilled seamen became an increasing problem. Castilian kings traditionally relied on their northern seafaring communities to provide them with temporary warships, and this tradition was the mainstay of Spanish navy until the 1580s.Some of the most powerfully armed ships of the Armada were Portuguese.

    The Portuguese navy did indeed play an important role in Habsburg war effort in Europe.The Portuguese navy is regarded as part of the Indian enterprise but it was also an Atlantic and European force. The navy of the House of Aviz was a pioneer in several respects and in the early 16th century it may have been the most advanced operational force of its kind.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  9. #29

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    The Portuguese have managed to build an empire far larger than the size of their population would have suggested. They were quite creative in their approach.

    For instance, while technically it was illegal to have two wives, the illegitimate children of the Portuguese colonists with the native women enjoyed equal inheritance rights with the children the colonist had back in Portugal.

    That legal provision quite likely was bound to make those mestizo children loyal to the Portuguese crown, and to encourage the local women to "marry" the Portuguese willingly, as that would have constituted a way for their children and their relatives to move up socially.

    The Portuguese stupidly blew it with Brazil when after the end of the Napoleonic Wars the Portuguese parliament insisted that the mainland Portuguese merchants regain the monopoly of the foreign trade. The Brazilian-based businessmen quite rightly refused to accept giving up their most lucrative business, which led to the break away of Brazil. Without this quite surprising narrow sightedness on the part of the Portuguese parliament, Brazil would have quite likely stayed within the empire.

    The Brazilians might have demanded more control over how the money from the local taxes would have been spent, but in general there were no strong reasons to demand independence. A Canada-like situation would have been the most likely evolution had that dispute over trade not happened.

    Being part of the Portuguese Empire had the strategic benefit of a strong alliance with Britain. After Brazil became independent, things started to get tensed with the British and later with the Americans.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MareNostrum

  10. #30
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    That legal provision quite likely was bound to make those mestizo children loyal to the Portuguese crown, and to encourage the local women to "marry" the Portuguese willingly, as that would have constituted a way for their children and their relatives to move up socially.
    Quite right
    You have an excellent knowledge of the Portuguese History!
    In India, after the second conquest of Goa, Albuquerque - as you said- instituted a policy of settling the Portuguese veterans and encouraged them to take local woman, including former Muslims, as their wifes. Regarding the Hindus, at the same time, he protected their lands, temples, and institutions generally and even made an attempt to reduce their tax obligations.

    But the most valuable living legacy left in Goa by the Portuguese is the civil code that establishes gender and racial equality and also encompasses the concept of civil rights.
    In India, as a whole, there are religion-specific civil codes that separately govern adherents of different religions. Goa is an exception to that rule, in that a single code governs all Goans, irrespective of religion/ethnicity/ linguistic affiliation.
    There are a number of reasons why the Portuguese Civil Code is of paramount significance in the Indian legal context. But I will be addressing only two of the most primary here.

    The first has to do with the concept of absolute equality. For the most part, the civil laws currently in force in Goa that pertain to marriage, divorce, protection of children and succession are non-discriminatory in terms of caste, ethnicity or gender. And this is an advantage that does not exist in the rest of India...

    The egalitarian nature of the Portuguese Civil Laws has been lauded by women's groups throughout India, and is seen as a starting point for legislative reforms regarding women's' rights in the rest of the country.
    This brings us to a discussion on the potential of the Civil Code to serve as a basis for the codification of Indian laws.
    Goa's Civil Code
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #31

    Default Re: Portuguese History

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancMor13 View Post
    Yes, and because of the lack of "spanish" resources, Spain started to use our resources, a huge percentage of our navy went to help Spain with their invasions, and even he Invencible Armada had portuguese ships.
    Not to mention the "Invincible Armada", under Spanish command (ignoring the principles behind Treaty of Tordesillas), suffered a massive shipwreck on North Ireland, wasting centuries of Portuguese and Spanish effort.

    Philip II himself considered it as a punishment from God.



    After that, both Portugal and Spain started losing naval hegemony to the Dutch and English.

    Source on the events surrounding particular incident:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada_in_Ireland
    Last edited by fkizz; January 21, 2015 at 05:22 PM.

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