Which Rome II patch has the most agressive pike combat

[vinxente]

I read somewhere said that there was a certain patch in which pike soldier perform attack animation much more often than now. I'm not talking about in which patch pike unit was strongest in term of balance, just that the current pike combat is so lack of eye-candy. It was not always like this, wasn't it?

[GussieFinkNottle]

They changed it to cut down on the lawn-mower effect of the old pike units, it used to be that any infantry, even the finest in the game, engaged frontally with even mediocre pikemen would be slaughtered wholesale, so the reduced aggressiveness is to balance the unit and better reflect its historical role as a pinning formation, rather than a super offensive one. Pikes used to be the bane of multiplayer as they scythed all before them. It's better and more balanced now, even if that comes at the cost of you not thinking it looks so good any more.

[vinxente]

They changed it to cut down on the lawn-mower effect of the old pike units, it used to be that any infantry, even the finest in the game, engaged frontally with even mediocre pikemen would be slaughtered wholesale, so the reduced aggressiveness is to balance the unit and better reflect its historical role as a pinning formation, rather than a super offensive one. Pikes used to be the bane of multiplayer as they scythed all before them. It's better and more balanced now, even if that comes at the cost of you not thinking it looks so good any more.

Which patch was it, that is what I want to ask.

[Col.KanKrusha]

And does anyone know if the animation would still be there for modders to use ?

[JaM]

its not the animations that got changed, but stats in db/kv_rules table.

[vinxente]

its not the animations that got changed, but stats in db/kv_rules table.

Wow, thank you. Nice to know.

[Demetrios of Messene]

They changed it to cut down on the lawn-mower effect of the old pike units, it used to be that any infantry, even the finest in the game, engaged frontally with even mediocre pikemen would be slaughtered wholesale, so the reduced aggressiveness is to balance the unit and better reflect its historical role as a pinning formation, rather than a super offensive one. Pikes used to be the bane of multiplayer as they scythed all before them. It's better and more balanced now, even if that comes at the cost of you not thinking it looks so good any more.

It was unacceptable when the pikes were OP and it is unacceptable now that they have become almost useless in MP. As a result, hellenisitc type of armies are practically unused in MP, which is a heavy blow to army variety and the change has caused as many balancing issues as it solved.

Pikes used to be strong in the early versions of the game and as far as I know it is not possible to revert to a previous patch with steam.

[DeliCiousTZM]

Anything before patch 7.

[Petroniu]

Since EE I noticed a couple of things:

- Morale is very strong (a little bit too strong) now all round! You cannot win a battle by routing the enemy troops, you need to kill 70-80% of them until you can cause a rout, no matter if it is an elite praetorian vs a mob unit.
- Pikes are weaker. Javelins absolutely rape them because they cannot raise their shields to protect themselves. It seems CA forgot that the multitude of pikes actually provided better defense against missiles.
- Cavalry cannot be used only for charges. Prolonged battles are a no-no, only for ultra very heavy cavalry units.
- Missile units are outstandingly resilient. They can put up a fight and pin down cavalry units so that you cannot use them for outflanking. It seems CA gave the stats of light infantry to missile units, making light infantry unnecessary in an army.
- Enemy generals are TERMINATORS. Almost in EVERY battle the enemy general gets surrounded by my ENTIRE army and inflicts severe casualties before himself dying. I had once 1 unit of first cohort - 3 xp chevrons and 1 unit of veteran legionaires - 6 chevrons attack a briton heroic nobles unit with no chevrons and the briton gen unit lost 20 men while my 2 units got wiped out. This is the most annoying thing in each battle, taking out the enemy general.

Now, if you take these things out, the battles are quite nice.

[vinxente]

Anything before patch 7.

Nice, I should reinstall with a hard copy.

[GussieFinkNottle]

It was unacceptable when the pikes were OP and it is unacceptable now that they have become almost useless in MP. As a result, hellenisitc type of armies are practically unused in MP, which is a heavy blow to army variety and the change has caused as many balancing issues as it solved.

Pikes used to be strong in the early versions of the game and as far as I know it is not possible to revert to a previous patch with steam.

I still play as Seleucids on MP with a pike-dominant army and I still win. They're not useless by any means, just weaker.

[tat501]

Pikes should be buzz-saws that kill anything from the front. They have weaknesses - i.e. flanks and rear and missiles - but nerfing them so they're just pushing long handled broom's at the enemy is a bit lame. If they're considered OP then some units could have a "pike breaking" ability - kind of like the Folorn Hope in Medieval 2. Similarly in Medieval 2 Sword and Buckler men had an animation where they would kind of "dance" through the pike wall and so be able to break it (albeit at the cost of considerable casualties). I know warscape has basically killed the Total War series by stopping things like this being possible but you get the picture....

[Jay the Byzantine]

Making pikes stronger will just enable red-line camping and troll behavior like it.

[JaM]

Pikes should be buzz-saws that kill anything from the front. They have weaknesses - i.e. flanks and rear and missiles - but nerfing them so they're just pushing long handled broom's at the enemy is a bit lame. If they're considered OP then some units could have a "pike breaking" ability - kind of like the Folorn Hope in Medieval 2. Similarly in Medieval 2 Sword and Buckler men had an animation where they would kind of "dance" through the pike wall and so be able to break it (albeit at the cost of considerable casualties). I know warscape has basically killed the Total War series by stopping things like this being possible but you get the picture....

except that there is not a single historical mention of them being like that... on contrary, they were defeated several times during frontal engagement, and not just by Romans, but also by Gauls, who even managed to capture Macedonian King during that battle, and beheaded him (Ptolemy Ceraunos was that unfortunate)

Pike was just too heavy and way too long to be effectively used as thrusting weapon. It was practically just a barrier, that enemy could not cross, but on its own it was unable to defeat it. Instead, it relied on main cavalry force to attack the pinned enemy in the back.

just look how unwieldy that pike was, and imagine, you would have to hold that pike for several hours during the battle...

[Demetrios of Messene]

I still play as Seleucids on MP with a pike-dominant army and I still win. They're not useless by any means, just weaker.

I am a casual MP player and I have probably watched more matches in youtube than played myself. I have never seen an efficient use of pikes, with the only exception pike boxes vs steppe faction, the latter having been designated as attackers by tournament rules.

However, if you care to try we can arrange a couple of friendly matches. I intend to bring my Roman pre-built army, which is not tailor made for any particular faction, but it will not matter imo if your army is indeed pike dominant. I will also inform you of the exact composition of my Roman army before the match. Then again if you think that the Romans are in advantage over a pike army by design, you can choose my faction (as long as it is not a steppe faction, since I am not familiar with their playstyle), you can set any kind of reasonable rules (like the cwb from RTW or whatever is reasonable for this game around, you decide) and we will try it out. PM if you are interested in this experiment. I will be most pleasantly surprised if a "pike-dominant army" can show efficiency, regardless of the actual battle result.

[Petroniu]

Seeing that video and thinking that CA made pikemen able to run while in phalanx mode...

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

Seeing that video and thinking that CA made pikemen able to run while in phalanx mode...

mantaining formation...

[Slaists]

Since EE I noticed a couple of things:

- Pikes are weaker. Javelins absolutely rape them because they cannot raise their shields to protect themselves. It seems CA forgot that the multitude of pikes actually provided better defense against missiles.
- Missile units are outstandingly resilient. They can put up a fight and pin down cavalry units so that you cannot use them for outflanking. It seems CA gave the stats of light infantry to missile units, making light infantry unnecessary in an army.

Now, if you take these things out, the battles are quite nice.

About that #1: with the latest two patches pikes, are much more resilient against missiles (especially the higher tier pikes). Pike armor rating is much higher now and they have almost double the hit-points they used to have with the earlier game versions. Pikes used to melt to frontal javelin salvos, not anymore.

Not sure where you see #2. What types of missile units are talking here? I have absolutely no problem routing lower tier missile units with light cavalry. If facing multiple missile units: just run your cavalry through triggering chain skirmish: can rout multiple missile units with one cavalry unit that way.

Higher tier missile units (peltasts, Thracian peltasts, some Eastern Archers carrying spears) is a different matter. Those are supposed to be hybrids and should be able to put up some fight. Even then, if you're able to trigger skirmish even those higher tier missile units will succumb to cavalry, maybe not light cavalry though.

[GussieFinkNottle]

I am a casual MP player and I have probably watched more matches in youtube than played myself. I have never seen an efficient use of pikes, with the only exception pike boxes vs steppe faction, the latter having been designated as attackers by tournament rules.

However, if you care to try we can arrange a couple of friendly matches. I intend to bring my Roman pre-built army, which is not tailor made for any particular faction, but it will not matter imo if your army is indeed pike dominant. I will also inform you of the exact composition of my Roman army before the match. Then again if you think that the Romans are in advantage over a pike army by design, you can choose my faction (as long as it is not a steppe faction, since I am not familiar with their playstyle), you can set any kind of reasonable rules (like the cwb from RTW or whatever is reasonable for this game around, you decide) and we will try it out. PM if you are interested in this experiment. I will be most pleasantly surprised if a "pike-dominant army" can show efficiency, regardless of the actual battle result.

I'm interested, when do you want to try it? Not in the next couple of days though, I'm snowed under with unpredictable work and a shoddy internet connection, but later this week?

[Maklodes]

Similarly in Medieval 2 Sword and Buckler men had an animation where they would kind of "dance" through the pike wall and so be able to break it (albeit at the cost of considerable casualties). I know warscape has basically killed the Total War series by stopping things like this being possible but you get the picture....

Are you talking about some mod? Because I'm pretty sure that in standard Medieval II, sword-and-buckler men are pretty typical sword-and-shield infantry with no special abilities, with no special interactions with pikes any different from other sword-and-shield infantry like dismounted feudal knights, armored swordsmen, etc. Not that they needed anything special to defeat M2TW pikes.