[Submod] Chaos is a Ladder (CiaL)

[Arafis]

Só, if in M2TW you out de lord of dreadfort how vassal of winterfell its note function?

[AdmiralThrawn]

Hey, so I noticed the Reach only has 82% of the Westerlands wealth. I would argue that this is incorrect based on this information here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...lannister.html

It's true everybody acts like the Lannisters are the richest, but in reality they can't spend it (and it's all tied up in sub-prime mortgages). Personally I'd put the reach at 100% (they have 1-2 million people based on army size), the Westerlands at ~85% (they have 600k-1.2 milion people based on the size of their army, plus all dat gold), and the Crownlands at ~80% (they have 500k in KL, plus maybe another ~300k elsewhere based on their tiny army not really playing a role in the Wot5K, though they do profit from a lot of trade to help close the difference). I'm basing these numbers off of known army numbers and the assumption that a medieval kingdom could levy about 5-10% of its population in a war. Either way, the difference in population is still about the same regardless.

Just something you might fine useful .

[Elbadruhel]

Lannisters are the richest faction in Westeros. I dont use people studies for that, but what Martin says in his books: "Just House Hightower have a fortune comparable with the Lannisters´one".

But i agree with you, the Reach is "better" than the Westerland, in order they dont have mines but have crops and is a vast area of grassland. This percentages means the "Wealth of a region". I mean, how wealthy is this area x m2? I will explain, the North is poor and wild, the ironborn has just a few mines of iron but the land is poor. The Lannister has gold in their hills... And the Reach has fertile lands.

But what happens? The gold is more valuable than the grain. But the Reach has A LOT of farmlands and the Westerland just a few mines. So, at the end, the Reach will give more income than the Westerlands. Just because they are wide. Like in your article about the crops and the gold.

Summarizing, my % balance how reach is a region, but if u have more regions, of course you will be reacher. For example, the North has a wealth of 71% and Dorne of 74%, and even the Iron Islands a 65%. BUT if u own ALL the North, of course you will be reacher than if u own all Dorne, and obviously MUCH wealthier than owning all the Iron Islands.

I hope i have explained well ^^.

The % represent the aprox wealthy of a region in a region. So u could see who is reacher than who easily. But if u own MORE lands, of course u will be reacher.

Ej: Bolton (5) will be poorer than Florent (5). And Frey will be reacher than Bolton but less than Florent. Of course, this is aprox numbers, because then the cities and settlements will affect it.

[AdmiralThrawn]

Ah, that makes much more sense . Good luck (I'm here if you need any more research, I just reread the books and have it all in memory after AOPK)!

[Elbadruhel]

U can suggest anything u want.

For example. What unique unit for every faction? Ryswell will have cavalry of course. But what about Florent & Peake? And Hewett? U can suggest anything based on lore

U can also write here all the AOR units famous from books and ASoIaF history (Dunk & Egg, etc). For example: Blackwood longbows, Bracken Cavalry, Fossoway Archers, Clansmen of the North, etc

[AdmiralThrawn]

Well just off the top of my head:

Hewett forces didn't wear armor (Victarion points that out), and they were mostly fighting heavy infantry. I'd recommend a hybrid crossbow/spearmen unit with light armor maybe? I made something similar for AOPK 2.0 if you wanna use that.

Florent probably has access to heavy knights and other cavalry seeing as most of their strength rode with Renly to Storm's End before defecting. Brightwater Knights could be cool, with barded horses and the Florent sigil (again, I made something similar and it looked pretty cool, if you want it).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Peake's history is mostly unknown, so it all depends on where you put them. WoIaF puts them somewhere near the Dornish Marches/Ashford. This meant they were sandwiched between the heavy cavalry/plentiful infantry of the Reach, and the Cavalry/spear heavy Dornish forces (probably fighting some Marcher Lords too). In terms of resources, their lands seem rather fertile (nearby lords have a horn of pleanty sigil, and three have apples) and they personally control 3 castles. Maybe some numerous/affordable medium infantry? Assuming Starpike is on a mountain (sounds like it is), maybe some heavy pikemen/halberds to hold it?

In the North, you could give Bolton a fear unit like the Skinwearers I created (sensing a pattern here ).

As for Manderly, their main distinction is their heavy knights so that seems like a solid choice.

Skagos has limited manpower, limited resources, and is constantly under wildling attack. As cool as it would be to have unicorn riders, maybe some heavy infantry with high attack 2h axes and medium fur armor? Or even better, their distinction from the Wildlings could be their discipline (they are a part of the Seven Kingdoms), so maybe a bone-halberd unit?

Greyjoy could use maybe some basic Ironborn Champions or what not?

Harlaw is richer and many of their folks follow the Faith of the Seven. Maybe hybrid unit with Westerosi-stye armor, but Ironborn axes and helmets?

Frey's are a bunch of cowards hiding behind their castle walls so maybe some hybrid crossbowmen/swordsmen/musicians?

Tullys probably get cavalry (they need it to rule such a big area and control all their vassals).

The only thing I recall about Vance/Piper is that Jaime kicked their asses. As such that rules out pikemen, as they could have broken Jaime's charge. They have fertile lands, but are next to the Golden Tooth meaning their main foe consists of Westerland knights and cavalry (a huge part of Tywin's army is mounted). If they couldn't face Jaime in the field then their forces weren't designed for field battles. Instead, their castles occupy strategic points along the Red Fork, and would likely need to be taken if one hopes to secure Riverrun. As such, maybe they developed a castle-defense specialized unit, like heavy swordsmen? They would hold the castles while Tully and Bracken cavalry came in to reinforce.

Arryn is known for its knights, so they should at the very least have good knight units (that's how they broke the First Men).

As for Royce, I'd recommend using the Runeriders I made.

Sunderland was known for its pirates and slavers, but by now they are mostly just scavengers. They were dragged into three Blackfyre rebellions, and lost all three times. As such, its unlikely they would have been allowed to maintain a huge army of navy after that. The main threat they face is probably from medium infantry pirates and slavers, as well as maybe some northern heavy infantry. Perhaps a medium unit with large shields and spears? They probably couldn't afford much else (they can barely afford seven suits of armor).

Lannister could maybe use a coastal cavalry patrol unit to drive ironborn invaders back into the sea.

[Arafis]

House Tyrell is very rich too

[HannibalExMachina]

as for coastal, House Farman Outriders?

[Elbadruhel]

You have to differentiate between:
- Faction Unique Unit. Will be recruitable for just 1 faction. Like any other unit of his roster. In all settlements. Like Men at Arms or Spearmen Levy.
- AOR Unit. Will be recruitable for ALL factions. In 1 settlement. They are soldiers of a subfaction and they could be recruited for the faction that controls the subfaction lands.

AOR units, for example will be: Fossoway Archers (New Barrel and Cider Hall), Crakehall Heavy Infantry (Crakehall), Blackwood Longbowmen (Raventree Hall) and Bracken Cavalry (Stone Hedge).

[AdmiralThrawn]

I'd say most of these should be AOR, but maybe the Vance/Piper swordsmen, the Arryn Knights, and the Coastal Outriders could be faction-available. Maybe the coastal outriders are AOR for the entire coast. Have you thought about using the AOPK recruitment system (every unit is AOR, handled by putting a unique "house" building in each province)?

[Elbadruhel]

Admiral. I will use several units from AoPK. I have seen some that could be useful, like Runnic Knights (will be Bronze Knights, the unique unit of House Royce) or your Arbor Marines (for House Redwyne).

And i could use maybe some of the basic troops: Spearmen, men at arms... Or the vanilla ones. I will check it.

But your archers are bugged (at least in the version XXX sent to me that u have sent him). And i hate pikemens in Westeros, they will be deleted. If there are any pikemen/halberdier in the mod will be just an unique unit or AOR unit. Not the "basic" one like in AoPK.

About the AOPK recruiting sistem, no, i wont use it. The units of a faction will have skins and shields of that faction (Crociato is doing them and i will use AoPK ones too) and the AOR units will have their house skins and skin (Fossoway, Blackwood, Bracken...). Nothing else.

But for recruiting i will use "loyalty", like we will use in 1.0.

There will be several "cultures":
- 1. Northern. (4) Stark, Bolton, Ryswell and Skagosi.
- 2. Ironborn. (2) Greyjoy and Harlaw.
- 3. Westernlander. (3) Lannister, Shadow Faction and Baratheon of Kings Landing.
- 4. Riverlander. (3) Tully, Vance and Frey.
- 5. Valemen. (3) Sunderland, Royce and Arryn.
- 6. Reachmen. (7) Manderly, Rowan, Tyrell, Hewett, Florent, Hightower and Redwyne.
- 7. Dornish. (3) Dayne, Yronwood and Martell.
- 8. Stormlander. (3) Baratheon of Storms End, Baratheon of Dragonstone and Marches Lords.
- 9. Targaryen. (1) Targaryen.

Im thinking on adding other culture: Oldtown. And set in it: Florent, Hightower and Redwyne. What do u think?

Well. When a faction conquers a settlement, it needs to take control over it. U will choose between "Give the land to your noblemen" or "Accept current lords as vassals". If u bring loyal lords to this new land, people will riot and u wont be able to recruit soldiers, but u will "convert" the region really fast because your noblemen will make the common folk to accept you or die. On the other hand, if u accept the current lords as vassals, people will be calmed, because nothing changes for them, and the nobles will pay you taxes and give you a few troops, but they will wait the chance to revolt or betray you, so the common folks of the region will convert to your culture slowly.

When you reaches a high % you will improve the building you chose to a "Loyal Province" wich will allow you to recruit hardly everything and earn all the income. And finally, a "Core Province", what means that the people feel you are their rightfull king and will follow you to death. And if you lose the region and then reconquer it, they wont riot and will continue following you.

Anyway, to recruit a unit in a region, u need to have a % of your culture in that region. What this makes? Simple, two things:

- Allow CHAOS in the regions. Betraying, wars for power... Boltons will try to become Lords of the North? Royces will firm the "lords declarant document"? Yronwood will betray Martell? Who knows. All is posible, because it will take to them just a few turns to pacify the regions they conquer and people will accept them quickly as new lords due to they are of the same culture.
- BUT! This system makes VERY difficult to you to "invade realms", people of Dorne hates Reachmen, just a Northren can rule the North, the riverlanders riot agaisnt Lannister... And so on. If you want to conquer a realm, you will need to send A LOT of troops and have A LOT of money. Because the conquered lands wont give you reinforcements or gold to pay your soldiers for A LONG time. This will stop that boring feature of vanilla of "siege, conquer, recruit, siege, conquer, recruit". You will need to have supply lanes or finally "the conquered" will defeat you and when they reconquer their lands they will be able to recruit again so will push you out of all you have already conquered.

----------

So:
- A small roster common for cultures: First Men, Andal, Ironborn and Dornish.
- Some AOR units recruitable in a settlement for the faction that owns that settlement. Dont matter who is the owner. Based on history and pride of every small house.
- 1 unique unit for every faction, based on lore and playability.
- 9-10 religions for the 29 factions. With different options for pacify the conquered provinces.
- Need to have conquered and pacify a region and have a high percentege of loyals between the inhabitants to recruit units in a region.

Greetings!

PD: Anyone who wants to help, PM.

[Iquabakaner]

In fact I have a little doubt about the whole thing. We all know how AIs behave. Will we get something like the "Ally Invade" feature (in some submod I think) in TATW? I'm sure that without it, most of your allies you've got will sit down and do nothing. Sometimes it can be realistic, but mostly not. I don't want to see all my vassal lords getting full stacks all over his lands while I fight alone.

[AdmiralThrawn]

I think there's a hard coded limit on religions, but I could be wrong. As for bugged archers, you can just pull them out of AOPK 1.0. Pikemen are canon (recall the Battle of the Green Fork), but I think they really screwed with the AOPK balance so I can't fault you for removing them . Either way, good luck!

[Etruscan]

Thanks!

[Elbadruhel]

Iquabakaner.
- If u have a look to the factions, EVERYONE has bordiers withother factions. I have studied it to give an option to the IA. The unique faction that were "trapped" was Fossoway and i have already defeated it.
- Some factions could riot against their lords or try to conquer their fellows. Like in the books. This will be affected for the relationships i set for them.
- I will try to make IA to go trough their allies lands. We will see this.

Summarizing: Ia will betray their fellows or invade their neighbours if they like their allies. EVERY faction has a possible enemy to face wich is not allied with, check it.

And even if people plays a hotseat, this wont be a problem.

--------------

Admiral, the max number of religions is 10. As you can see i have not reached it.

[Elbadruhel]

The unique unit for factions. You can suggest whatever you want based on lore:

- Ryswell & Dustin. Ryswell Cavalry. Medium cavalry.
- Stark. ---------
- Bolton. Dreadful Knights of Dreadfort. Heavy Infantry, frigthen nearby infantry. Maybe Great Axes or Longsword (with or without shield).
- Mandelry. Manderly Knights. Heavy cavalry with spears and swords.
- Skagos. If they choose to be cannibals, pirates and pillagers. They will have brave units, berserkers, that frighten nearby infantry. If they choose to become legal and follow the law, they will have strong soldiers with high moral that inspires nearby troops.
- Greyjoy. ------
- Harlaw. Harlaw Reavers. Shock Troops with a scythe.
- Frey. ------- (Frey Wardens. Heavy Spearmen with shield wall option).
- Tully. Tully Riders. Medium cavalry with bows. (Based on Brynden Tully cavalry in the books).
- Vance. -------
- Sunderland. --------- (Pirates of the Three Sisters. Light infantry with bows and swords).
- Arryn. Vale Noblemen. Heavy Cavalry.
- Royce. Bronze Knights. Heavy Cavalry, really well protected. (From AoPK).
- Lannister. -------- (Heavy Infantry? Longbows?)
- Baratheon of Kings Landing. ----------
- Baratheon of Dragonstone. Men of the King/Men of the Queen.
- Baratheon of Storms End. Storm Hammers. Heay infantry with two-handed hammers.
- Marchers Lords. -------
- Dayne. Swords of the Dawn. Heavy Swordsmen. Maybe longsword or sword & shield.
- Martell. ------- (Heavy Spears of Dorne. Heavy Infantry with Spears and shield. Maybe Phalanx?)
- Rowan. -------
- Tyrell. Tyrell Knights. Heavy cavalry.
- Florent & Peake. Florys´Linage Knights. Heavy Cavalry.
- Hewett. Hewett Keepers. Medium infantry with leather armor, crossbow, shield and spear.
- Hightower. Guardians of the High Tower. Heavy infantry with great shield and spears.
- Redwyne. Redwyne Marines. Light infantry with shield, spear and javelins. (from AoPK).


AOR:

- North Clans. Clansmen (light infantry with axe and rounded shield), Clan hunters (light infantry with axe) and Clan Champions (Medium infantry with longswords).
- Cranogmen. Light infatry with tridents and bows or javelins.
- Blackwood Longbows. Light infantry with Long bows, stakes and sword.
- Bracken Cavalry. Medium cavalry with spear, sword and shield.
- Mountain Clans. The same that the North Clans, but in the Mountains of the Moon.
- Crakehall Infantry. Heavy infantry with great axes, inspire nearby infantry and frighten enemy infantry.
- Fossoway Archers. Light infantry with Long bows, stakes and sword.
- Desert Riders. Light cavalry with bows and swords. In all the desert regions of Dorne.
- Guards of Sunspear/Norvos Guards. Heavy infantry with high moral and two-handed axe. In sunspear.
- Rainforest Hunters. Light infantry with shortbows and axes. In all the rainforest regions.
- Kings Landing. Goldcloak Wardens. Medium Infantry with Spear and shield. Goldcloak archers. Medium Infantry with bow and sword.


Other ideas for AOR:

- Special boats in the Arbor.
- Units for the Mountains of Dorne. (Dayne, Yronwod and Marchers lords could recruit them at start).
- Units for Peakes or Manderly former regions.
- Sarsfield or Golden Tooth units.

[Drazule]

The unique unit for factions. You can suggest whatever you want based on lore:

- Ryswell & Dustin. Ryswell Cavalry. Medium cavalry.
- Stark. Wolfswood Wardens (heavy Infantry) or Wolfswood Hunters (longbowmen)
- Bolton. Dreadful Knights of Dreadfort. Heavy Infantry, frigthen nearby infantry. Maybe Great Axes or Longsword (with or without shield).
- Mandelry. White Harbor Knights/Knights of the North Heavy cavalry with spears and swords, Mermen (Medium Infantry with tridents and combat bonus in water)
- Skagos. If they choose to be cannibals, pirates and pillagers. They will have brave units, berserkers, that frighten nearby infantry. If they choose to become legal and follow the law, they will have strong soldiers with high moral that inspires nearby troops.
- Greyjoy. Reavers
- Harlaw. Harlaw Harvesters. Shock Troops with a scythe.
- Frey. Guards of the Crossing (Frey Wardens. Heavy Spearmen with shield wall option).
- Tully. Riders of Riverrun. Medium cavalry with bows. (Based on Brynden Tully cavalry in the books).
- Vance. -------
- Sunderland. --------- (Pirates of the Three Sisters. Light infantry with bows and swords).
- Arryn. Knights of the Vale (This is what they're called anyway). Heavy Cavalry.
- Royce. Bronze Knights. Heavy Cavalry, really well protected. (From AoPK).
- Lannister. -------- (Heavy Infantry? Longbows?)
- Baratheon of Kings Landing. Stokeworth Bowguard (heavy crossbow units)
- Baratheon of Dragonstone. Men of the King/Queen's Men.
- Baratheon of Storms End. Storm Hammers. Heay infantry with two-handed hammers.
- Marchers Lords. -------
- Dayne. Swords of the Dawn. Heavy Swordsmen. Maybe longsword or sword & shield.
- Martell. ------- (Heavy Spears of Dorne. Heavy Infantry with Spears and shield. Maybe Phalanx?)
- Rowan. -------
- Tyrell. Knights of the Reach/Highgarden. Heavy cavalry.
- Florent & Peake. Florys´Linage Knights. Heavy Cavalry.
- Hewett. Hewett Keepers. Medium infantry with leather armor, crossbow, shield and spear.
- Hightower. Guardians of the High Tower, High Tower Sentinels. Heavy infantry with great shield and spears.
- Redwyne. Arbor Marines/Marines of the Arbor. Light infantry with shield, spear and javelins. (from AoPK).


AOR:

- North Clans. Clansmen (light infantry with axe and rounded shield), Clan hunters (light infantry with axe) and Clan Champions (Medium infantry with longswords).
- Cranogmen. Light infatry with tridents and bows or javelins.
- Blackwood Bowmen (I'm a slave to Alliteration). Light infantry with Long bows, stakes and sword.
- Bracken Cavalry. Medium cavalry with spear, sword and shield.
- Mountain Clans. The same that the North Clans, but in the Mountains of the Moon.
- Crakehall Infantry. Heavy infantry with great axes, inspire nearby infantry and frighten enemy infantry.
- Fossoway Archers. Light infantry with Long bows, stakes and sword.
- Dornish Riders(They'd be Dornish anyway, why not make them called this). Light cavalry with bows and swords. In all the desert regions of Dorne.
- Guards of Sunspear/Norvos Guards. Heavy infantry with high moral and two-handed axe. In sunspear.
- Rainforest Hunters. Light infantry with shortbows and axes. In all the rainforest regions. Is there even a Rainforest in Westeros? I don't think that is true.
- Kings Landing. Goldcloaks. Medium Infantry with Spear and shield. Goldcloak archers. Medium Infantry with bow and sword.


Other ideas for AOR:

- Special boats in the Arbor.
- Units for the Mountains of Dorne. (Dayne, Yronwod and Marchers lords could recruit them at start).
- Units for Peakes or Manderly former regions.
- Sarsfield or Golden Tooth units.

I'm just gonna add/edit what I think should be in or you should change the name. I feel as though you can do more than simply have [House]_[Unit]. Not really following lore too much, but things that make sense. Blues are changes, Greends are addition, red is copalint.

[HannibalExMachina]

not as such. there is a rainwood tho

[Drazule]

not as such. there is a rainwood tho

OHHHH hahaahah.

[Elbadruhel]

In the cap of wrath, in the Stormlands, there is a HUGE forest that occupy hardly all the cap. That wood is called "la selva" in spanish. I tough in english it is "the rainforest". But now is saw that its "The Rainwood". Stannis gives lands to Davos in the cape of wrath and a fortress and then, he promote him to "Lord of the rainwood".

About unit names i prefered to call them as faction units than city units because they wont be AOR but all faction-wide. So "White Harbor Knight wont be recruited just in White Harbor but in all the Manderly´s regions". Thats why i called them "Manderlys Knight" instead of "White Harbor Knights". What do u think?