Dalhousie University Thoughtcrime Scandal: "Dentistry, Feminism, and Smut, oh my!"

[King_Porus]

As most of you on TWC aren't Canadian and therefore probably haven't heard of this scandal, the articles I am about to post may seem like nothing more than unimportant local gossip. While this may be true at a glance, it is much more than that and raises a few important questions and has made national news for weeks here in Canada (the people are bored of Ukraine and Syria I guess).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ants-1.2890938

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle22310028/

The gist of it is that a group of about thirteen male 20-something year old students from the Dalhousie University dentistry program (moderately prestigious) have been suspended and could possibly be expelled and have their names released to the masses for posting sexually explicit comments in a facebook group.

The posts ranged from "who (out of the female students in our program) would you rather hate (have rough sex with)" to "does this cloth smell like chloroform?" commented on pictures of attractive women in bikinis.

While extreme feminists have started a rally cry to have these boys kicked out of the school/put in jail/castrated/etc, lots of average citizens are also calling for them to be kicked out and have the names released for fear that these men would go on to rape women after drugging them (as they referenced in their jokes). Other Canadians believe that it is normal for boys to joke about sex and vent their frustrations and that most never act on their fantasies.

TL;DR: Male dentistry students make jokes about have rough/non-consensual sex with women and may or may not be kicked out of school and have their names released, thus ending any chance of them getting any decent jobs in Canada.

My question for TWCers: Do these men deserve to have their lives ruined (since they'll never get a job in Canada if their names are released) or are people overreacting. Is this a case of "boys will be boys" or is the case against them legitimate?
Should schools be allowed to discipline/expel students for making childish remarks that don't actually break any laws?

edit: Just to be clear I'm not taking sides in this, just curious to hear what others think.

[Chukada1]

I'm familiar with this story. They absolutely deserve this punishment. These men are in a post-graduate degree program, so they're more like 24-28 years old. No longer boys. It would be different if they were in the first or second year of university, and haven't fully matured into adults, but these boys should be mature enough now. This wasn't like a private conversation between friends, but something they posted on Facebook which is a public domain. The university in question has a right to expel these students for sexual harassment, which is what they did.

Originally I didn't think they should receive this punishment, but then I learned how old somebody has to be to be in their last year of a Dentistry program. Its a long journey, like 8 years of education. If you're that old, you should know better. If they were 18-20 year old guys, then no, but seriously, when is the appropriate age for men not to make comments like that on Facebook? 30? 40? Lastly, the dentistry program is highly competitive, if these 13 students can't be dentists, there are 13 other students who would fill this gap easily. Canada isn't hurting for dentists. Lastly, do you want one of these 26-28 year olds who still post this stuff on Facebook to be your dentist? What if you were a woman?

[King_Porus]

I'm familiar with this story. They absolutely deserve this punishment. These men are in a post-graduate degree program, so they're more like 24-28 years old. No longer boys. It would be different if they were in the first or second year of university, and haven't fully matured into adults, but these boys should be mature enough now. This wasn't like a private conversation between friends, but something they posted on Facebook which is a public domain. The university in question has a right to expel these students for sexual harassment, which is what they did.

Originally I didn't think they should receive this punishment, but then I learned how old somebody has to be to be in their last year of a Dentistry program. Its a long journey, like 8 years of education. If you're that old, you should know better. If they were 18-20 year old guys, then no, but seriously, when is the appropriate age for men not to make comments like that on Facebook? 30? 40? Lastly, the dentistry program is highly competitive, if these 13 students can't be dentists, there are 13 other students who would fill this gap easily. Canada isn't hurting for dentists. Lastly, do you want one of these 26-28 year olds who still post this stuff on Facebook to be your dentist? What if you were a woman?

I'd like to specifically address your bolded comments and would just like to make it clear I'm not trying to take sides and can see both sides of the argument.

A) The dentistry student were likely in their early 20s and could have been as young as 23 I believe. But would it really be different if they were 18-22? If a 20 year-old student studying in an equally important (pre-med, engineering, etc) made the same comments would they be punished? Is their an invisible line in the sand somewhere? What makes it OK for a 20 year-old undergrad student to say that they want to have rough sex with a woman versus a 25-year old graduate student saying it?

B) The way I understood it, it was a private facebook group that they were posting on. And again, if it were private conversation, would it be any different? If these boys said these things in their flat, would it not be just as bad? Is it unreasonable to think that these kinds of conversations happen all the time and just never go public or have any long term effect?

C) Would I want them as my dentist? Now that their conversation has gone public? Not really sure. Since I'm not a woman I don't think I can really make that call. But do you really think that they would have acted on any of these things they said? People post all kinds of crazy things on the internet that they will never act on. People have all kinds of crazy thoughts that they never act on. Some doctors/lawyers/other professionals have extreme beliefs that they never act upon and will never be punished for them. Your dentist may be a neo-Nazi for all you know

[Derpy Hooves]

If Canadians don't value free speech, then yes they should be punished and have their lives ruined. If Canadians value free speech, no they do not need to be punished, and hell no they should not have their lives ruined.

[Chukada1]

If Canadians don't value free speech, then yes they should be punished and have their lives ruined. If Canadians value free speech, no they do not need to be punished, and hell no they should not have their lives ruined.

Canadians don't allow hate speech, which is what this is. You don't need to be posting about which classmates you would rape on facebook, and how you would rape them. There is nothing political or religious about this, there are no freedom undertones. You also can't publicly say that you want to kill all *insert demographic here* and get away with it. That's classified as hate speech, which is different than freedom of speech. What about the freedom of hearing? I have a right not to have to hear that crap.

The dentistry program at Dalhousie is highly competitive and only the best are allowed in. They only allow 39 students each year to enter the program. These were fourth year students, and on top of that, these students agreed with the university that sexual harassment would not be permitted, and is grounds for disciplinary action. Well they committed sexual harassment, so now they are receiving disciplinary action.

Lastly, do you want somebody this dumb to be your dentist?

[Derpy Hooves]

​But it wasn't public anyways. This was all conducted privately, until one person revealed all the contents.
Dumb? I don't care what beliefs my dentist has or what jokes they make, as long as they can do their job. That is all that matters. Is it sexual harassment when two guys are privately discussing women?

[Chukada1]

​But it wasn't public anyways. This was all conducted privately, until one person revealed all the contents.
Dumb? I don't care what beliefs my dentist has or what jokes they make, as long as they can do their job. That is all that matters. Is it sexual harassment when two guys are privately discussing women?

I highly suspect you're not a Canadian.

[Derpy Hooves]

No, I'm an American that values freedom of speech. Your point?

[Chukada1]

No, I'm an American that values freedom of speech. Your point?

Freedom of speech is not equivalent to hate speech. We don't want such freedoms here in Canada, where fourth year dentistry students caught sexually harassing female students in a private facebook group is not considered "freedom of speech". I don't feel like my freedom is infringed on if we prevent people from talking about which classmates they would rape and how they would rape them - information they posted online. Instead I feel like the restriction on hate speech that makes Canada a nice place to live in, is being upheld. Women have enough to fear. Will our country now allow these people to be our dentists? I hope not. That's not the society I want to live in.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Should schools be allowed to discipline/expel students for making childish remarks that don't actually break any laws?

Is this a serious question? Since when can schools only take action if a student breaks a law?

I think to any reasonable person the idea of publicly posting sexually explicit comments about fellow students on an official school page is totally unacceptable. If I did something similar at work I could fully expect to be immediately fired, and quite rightly. Furthermore, I think you are overreacting with borderline hysteria - the students have been suspended, their names are being protected, and I cannot see anything unreasonable in that response.

[the_mango55]

The university in question has a right to expel these students for sexual harassment, which is what they did.

Maybe I'm not as familiar with the story as you, but who were they harassing?

[Vanoi]

Not really a freedom of speech issue anyways since a university has the right to kick out students that don't follow their rules regarding behavior.

It really sucks, but schools have their rules. This is a competitive university not just any typical college and i guess they have standards to which they hold their students to.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Maybe I'm not as familiar with the story as you, but who were they harassing?

Fellow students. Says so in the source.

[Derpy Hooves]

Is this a serious question? Since when can schools only take action if a student breaks a law?

I think to any reasonable person the idea of publicly posting sexually explicit comments about fellow students on an official school page is totally unacceptable. If I did something similar at work I could fully expect to be immediately fired, and quite rightly. Furthermore, I think you are overreacting with borderline hysteria - the students have been suspended, their names are being protected, and I cannot see anything unreasonable in that response.

Except it was a private group, and unless you can prove that it was official, it is more likely that it was unofficial. A more reasonable example Ferrets, is if someone took what you said in your home, and told your boss. Now if the Facebook group was public and official, I can understand, but it seems to me it wasn't.

@Chukada
With freedom of speech, you have to accept the bad with the good. All it was were offensive things be talked about in secrit clubs. Was there intent behind those words to commit those actions? Extremely doubtful.
Restriction on hate speech, not hate crime, creates a dishonest society.

EDIT: Ferrets, if I am talking about you behind your back, am I harassing you? That is what these students did.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Except it was a private group, and unless you can prove that it was official, it is more likely that it was unofficial.

Yeah it's so private I can show you like this:



As people did indeed show this to the girls being pictured, being subjects of "who would you hate " polls, etc. This is not acceptable behaviour. Anyway, got a source it was private?

A more reasonable example Ferrets, is if someone took what you said in your home, and told your boss. Now if the Facebook group was public and official, I can understand, but it seems to me it wasn't.

They did not say this at home, they published it online on a group that explicitly associated themselves with the university.

EDIT: Ferrets, if I am talking about you behind your back, am I harassing you? That is what these students did.

They set up an online group where they published explicit sexual comments about fellow students. I don't know why you're pretending this was something it wasn't.

[Phier]

Completely stupid, but Canada seems to be headed that way...

Canada does not have a protected right to free speech, and apparently private off color jokes now should get you kicked out school.

BTW I had a few women I would hate ** too, my wife even knows who they are

[removeduser_487563287433]

So our claimed medical professional, you feel flippant about the idea of people declaring that sedating women in order to rape them may actually been in a position of trust with sedated women? Not a rhetorical question, genuinely interested if you have any sense of professional ethics at all.

[Caelifer_1991]

Just to add my two cents to this topic, I would suggest that while what they said was stupid, that comments on the internet, taken as a whole, can be defined more or less as the very definition of the word stupid, and that people should not have their entire professional lives ruined for a couple of Facebook messages. As to whether these men are actually a threat to society, well, if what people say on the internet was an accurate representation of their selves in the real world, then just about everyone is a threat to society.

[removeduser_487563287433]

their entire professional lives ruined

Let's just be totally explicit: those professional lives would involve using drugs to knock people unconscious and members of this group were discussing raping women they would drug unconscious.

These guys don't seem to care over much about their medical professionalism, from what I can see, and looks like the regulators are taking a similar, and totally justified view.

[Caelifer_1991]

Let's just be totally explicit: those professional lives would involve using drugs to knock people unconscious and members of this group were discussing raping women they would drug unconscious.

These guys don't seem to care over much about their medical professionalism, from what I can see, and looks like the regulators are taking a similar, and totally justified view.

Well, there's 'discussing' raping women on the internet, and then there's actually going out and doing it: I think the distance between the two things is great enough to make the former irrelevant. Now, I can see where you're coming from, you take the other view, which is that what they said is a meaningful reflection of their probable behaviours in real life, but if that is true for them, it ought to also be true for everyone else, and if it is true for everyone, then God help us all, given the general level of discourse on the internet in general. I mean seriously, take a look at Youtube comments for instance, that's public now too, with profiles linked to a Google account, yet observe what people write on there. If that is an accurate reflection of people IRL, rather than falling within the general remit of internet trolling, and of taking the internet as being an outlet for things that people have no intention of backing up in actual interpersonal relations, then half the population are still living in the 1800's.