Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

[hessam]

1- I saw them and they are much more realistic, but remember that Cuman/Kipchaks settled in southeast and eastern area of Hungary at that era so modders can add some Cuman units to Hungary also Hungarians mostly used curved bows like all other Turanid nomadic tribes and they were very good with that so u can increase the shots per min and horsemans should be like nomadic factions like their armor their look etc in early era but for high and late periods u can use European-crusader type armors.

2- Well Seljuks had brakisefal skull type (much more broad facial type) and you can use Turkomongol unit skin type with different mustaches (check attached pic)

3- Seljuk army can be seperated to 6 different parts

A- Gulam Soldiers- Elite Professional soldiers have very good armor
B- Hassa Soldiers (Elite Cavalry only) - Prepared to war in every minute members of Hassa gets fief for his life (they gets elite fertile lands only) they are like cataphracts.
C- Sipahis - (Cavalry only) - Mostly gathered up by Turcomans they get not so fertile fief lands for their work for their life time
D- Cilent state soldiers - You can add Kurd, Persian, Georgian, Armenian, Arabian unit cards for that part.
E- Military Governers & Boyars or Knights units, You can add a little bit better version of Cilent state soldiers also more Turkic or Turcoman unit cards.
F- Volunteers - For that part u can add Turkic horseman raiders or Ghazi like units

I was merely referring to the quality of Hungary's 2d unit cards.

As for the Seljuks, the only other option is Attila's Hunnic skin which doesn't seem quite appropriate either.
My classification of the early era would be: Hassa (Royal guards, probably used as bodyguards), Askari Nobles (counterpart of the European nobility), Ghulams (slave/foreigner units), Muqti (the landowner class), Ghazi (Volunteer units), Haser (farmers and villagers), and Tribal cavalry

P.S. I have to arrange them in a way that every unit finds an equivalent in the later Ottoman roster. That's vital for unit upgrade and transition from Seljuk to Ottoman era

[Visarion]

So you will revamp tier 1 as well? I kind of like the already existing units but more is better right? Just hoping you will keep the existing ones as they are amongst other additions...

[hessam]

So you will revamp tier 1 as well? I kind of like the already existing units but more is better right? Just hoping you will keep the existing ones as they are amongst other additions...

not a complete revamp no... I'll do the Ottoman roster first and then make necessary changes to the early roster accordingly

[sarmatian1991]

I see thats a good idea but still u can change those things other ones are ok.
Cilent state soldiers: Kurds,Persians,Georgians,Armenians can be add and for Ottomans Bulgarians,Tatars and Serbian cilent state units can be add
Askari Nobles: We have Melik or Meliks (plural) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melik
Muqti: We also dont have that name but both Ottomans and also Seljuk Empire used Sipahis for landowner class
Haser: I never saw that name before but for villagers name (or peasents) U can add "Köylüler" which means peasents or villagers in Turkish.

[sarmatian1991]

Also for Seljuks facial type and skin; We know that Italian envoy who saw Fatih Sultan Mehmed Khan (conqueror of Constantinapol) says that hes looks like a Tatar so I think using Hunnic skin is much more appropriate but since people wants to add cilent state soldier such as Armenian,Persian,Georgian,Arabian etc that Hunnic looking Seljuk army not gonna looks like purely Central Asiatic which is the historical truth.

[finix]

Cilent state soldiers: Kurds,Persians,Georgians,Armenians can be add and for Ottomans Bulgarians,Tatars and Serbian cilent state units can be add

That would be very inaccurate, I do not know where you got this information
There are no Bulgarian troops that have fought on the side of the Ottomans. Even when the Bulgarian lands enter the Ottoman Empire.
There are janissary troops whose soldiers are taken forcefully from their families to enter in army as a blood tax from the Balkans

[hessam]

I'd have to discuss it with the team, but I'd rather see client state levies work the same way as vanilla, where you can levy units from regions controlled by your client state. But there will be auxiliary troops for the Ottomans. The European Balkan auxiliaries will be divided into the Martolos (Greek regions) and Voynuk (other regions of the Balkans) units. There will be no Kurdish or Georgian auxiliary units since these lands were occupied by the Ottomans after the mod's time span.

[Danishmend]

Also for Seljuks facial type and skin; We know that Italian envoy who saw Fatih Sultan Mehmed Khan (conqueror of Constantinapol) says that hes looks like a Tatar so I think using Hunnic skin is much more appropriate but since people wants to add cilent state soldier such as Armenian,Persian,Georgian,Arabian etc that Hunnic looking Seljuk army not gonna looks like purely Central Asiatic which is the historical truth.

Hunnic skin from Vanilla looks too East Asian and can only be used for Mongols, medieval Armenian chronicles clearly tell the Turks (who invaded their lands in the 11th century) and Mongols (13th century) apart by describing the Mongols as "The first who came against our country were not like (ordinary) people, they were awful to see and impossible to describe.They had large heads, like a buffalo, narrow eyes like a chick, short noses like a cat, protruding chins like a dog, narrow waists like an ant, and short legs like a pig. They are completely beardless, possessing the strength of a lion and a screeching voice like an eagle".

Long and braided hair styles of the Turks was the only thing that attracted Armenians' attention, Turks were described by Armenian historians of the time as "long haired Turkmens armed with bow and lance on horses which flew like the wind".


The Oghuz Turks (Turkomans) led by the Seljuk dynasty must have resembled modern Central Asian Turkmens, modern Turkmens (of Turkmenistan) are Oghuz-speakers too (like Turkey and Azerbaijan), they are descendants of the remaining Oghuz tribes who did not flee during the Mongol Invasion.

Typical Turkmen man (from Turkmenistan)





I think Avar beard/moustache types from Charlemagne can make Seljuks' tier 1 troops Central Asian looking. Eastern skin + these beard/moustache types below would be great for early/tier 1 Rum units IMHO. Can you guys give them these beard and moustache types?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[sarmatian1991]

Well I'm Oghuz from Söğüt where Ottoman Empire founded, I have lots of "They had large heads, like a buffalo, narrow eyes like a chick" relatives but lets says u are right but even then that "Seljuk" soldiers doesnt looks like that Turcoman guy which u posted in the mod, they are using brown skinned Persian skins which have nothing to do with Turcomans.

[hessam]

Well I'm Oghuz from Söğüt where Ottoman Empire founded, I have lots of "They had large heads, like a buffalo, narrow eyes like a chick" relatives but lets says u are right but even then that "Seljuk" soldiers doesnt looks like that Turcoman guy which u posted in the mod, they are using brown skinned Persian skins which have nothing to do with Turcomans.

There's a limited number of skin types available in the game so it's impossible to accurately portrait every ethnicity. I'm not willing to take this argument any further.

[zsimmortal]

Well I'm Oghuz from Söğüt where Ottoman Empire founded, I have lots of "They had large heads, like a buffalo, narrow eyes like a chick" relatives but lets says u are right but even then that "Seljuk" soldiers doesnt looks like that Turcoman guy which u posted in the mod, they are using brown skinned Persian skins which have nothing to do with Turcomans.

And yet, when talking about Turkomans from around modern day Uzbekistan...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As much as people continue to debate this nonsense in every thread despite it being consistently pointed out that it is not based on any kind of contemporary sources, but rather on populations that had to go through great migrations of Altaic peoples from the East during the Mongol invasion.

And if you are indeed from Sogut, I doubt your relatives have any kind of resemblance to the Mongolian skins, considering the genetic makeup of Anatolian and Rumelian Turks is ridiculously closer to Armenians and Greeks than the Aral sea area Turkomans.

We are limited in what kind of skins we have, and yet again, if you have any kind of interesting historiographic documents which might bring good information regarding the physical appearance of medieval Turkomans in the Middle East, feel free to share. All I'm seeing here is people who want things to look a certain way because they prefer it that way, instead of actual discussion with historical accounts.

[Danishmend]

And yet, when talking about Turkomans from around modern day Uzbekistan...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As much as people continue to debate this nonsense in every thread despite it being consistently pointed out that it is not based on any kind of contemporary sources, but rather on populations that had to go through great migrations of Altaic peoples from the East during the Mongol invasion.

And if you are indeed from Sogut, I doubt your relatives have any kind of resemblance to the Mongolian skins, considering the genetic makeup of Anatolian and Rumelian Turks is ridiculously closer to Armenians and Greeks than the Aral sea area Turkomans.

We are limited in what kind of skins we have, and yet again, if you have any kind of interesting historiographic documents which might bring good information regarding the physical appearance of medieval Turkomans in the Middle East, feel free to share. All I'm seeing here is people who want things to look a certain way because they prefer it that way, instead of actual discussion with historical accounts.

Overally I agree with your post, except for this part:

considering the genetic makeup of Anatolian and Rumelian Turks is ridiculously closer to Armenians and Greeks than the Aral sea area Turkomans.

There is no doubt that Anatolian Turks are heavily mixed with native Anatolian populations (who were mostly local Greeks) and resemble them. When the Greek historian Nicephorus Gregoras passed through Bithynia (Northwest Anatolia) en route to Niceaea in the middle of the 14th century, just one generation after the conquest of Niceaea by Turks, he observed that the population consisted of Turks, mixovarvaroi (meaning mixed barbarians, offspring of mixed Turkish and Greek marriages), and Greeks. But Turks aren't really "ridiculously closer to Greeks and Armenians than to Turkmens". The genetic link between Anatolian Turks and Central Asian Turkmens is still clear.

Take a look at this autosomal DNA chart (comparison of Armenians, Greeks, Turks, Turkmens and Uzbeks)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If you look at Siberian and SE_Asian components you can see the genetic continuity between Anatolian Turks and Turkmens (and Uzbeks). Armenians and Greeks have little-to-no Siberian and SE_Asian whereas these components exist in Turks, Turkmens and Uzbeks in various levels (Uzbek>Turkmen>Turk).

Here is the autosomal DNA result of an Anatolian Turk (tested through Family Tree DNA)
I think it is no coincidence that he gets modelled as a mix of Turkmen and Greek genetically

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Turks resemble their West Asian and Greek neighbours, but it is not that difficult to encounter with these faces.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Too much off-topic but one last thing: Using Eastern Skin for Turks is reasonable since there aren't many options you can use.

But I don't know why you use Russian skin for Armenians, they aren't Slavic, they resemble their Kurdish and Iranian neighbours more than anything.

[hessam]

I didn't work on the Armenians and I haven't checked that thread recently, but you're right. Armenians should have eastern skin types as well.
And again neither eastern nor hunnic skins are a perfect representative of the Anatolian Turks, but the eastern skin type is much more appropriate than the hunnic one.

[zsimmortal]

Overally I agree with your post, except for this part:




There is no doubt that Anatolian Turks are heavily mixed with native Anatolian populations (who were mostly local Greeks) and resemble them. When the Greek historian Nicephorus Gregoras passed through Bithynia (Northwest Anatolia) en route to Niceaea in the middle of the 14th century, just one generation after the conquest of Niceaea by Turks, he observed that the population consisted of Turks, mixovarvaroi (meaning mixed barbarians, offspring of mixed Turkish and Greek marriages), and Greeks. But Turks aren't really "ridiculously closer to Greeks and Armenians than to Turkmens". The genetic link between Anatolian Turks and Central Asian Turkmens is still clear.

Take a look at this autosomal DNA chart (comparison of Armenians, Greeks, Turks, Turkmens and Uzbeks)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Too much off-topic but one last thing: Using Eastern Skin for Turks is reasonable since there aren't many options you can use.

But I don't know why you use Russian skin for Armenians, they aren't Slavic, they resemble their Kurdish and Iranian neighbours more than anything.

Ok, I am sorry for using 'ridiculously', but even those numbers indicate that 'statistically' (I'm not sure that's the appropriate term here), they are closer to Armenians and Greeks, not that it indicates being 'mostly' related to Greek or Armenian. There is obvious genetic dilution of both Turkmen heritage and the pre-Seljuq Anatolian populations.

I don't know how the current Armenian roster, I'll take a look once I've gotten far enough in my work elsewhere.

[You_Guess_Who]

Okay, lets make it easier, okay? In Attila, there are these man models:

- Roman (South Europeans and Mediterranean)
- Germanic
- Nordic
- Eastern (Iranians and Arabians)
- Nubian
- Ethiopian
- Steppe (Hunnic)
- Arab (with eyeliners)

That's it. Pick one that is the closest. Of course it can be mixed in proportion (max 4 variation per unit). And also, its possible to mix-and-match hair and beards between the models.

Again, Its not that we don't care about the genetic makeup or appearance of the people depicted in the mod, its just we're are limited by those.

[sarmatian1991]

"And if you are indeed from Sogut, I doubt your relatives have any kind of resemblance to the Mongolian skins"
Well I didnt said that we didnt mixed up every nation mixes up but I can tell that my relatives looks like Tatars but yeha you can continue to doubt that anyway

[sarmatian1991]

I see, still Avar skin type (I dont know which one them) can be used for Seljuks. If you can be make their skin a little bit darker that will be much more better but If not then yeah Persian skin with Hunnic mix proportion can be use too.

[zsimmortal]

- Eastern (Iranians and Arabians)

There's actually Arabian skins since the AoC pack.

[You_Guess_Who]

Avar skin type

CA actually just slap Germanic models with Hunnic facial hair for Avars

If you can be make their skin a little bit darker that will be much more better

Riiight...rigging new man models (the shape) are difficult, but reskinning the skin tones a bit wont be too hard. You got a point there.

[sarmatian1991]

I didn't work on the Armenians and I haven't checked that thread recently, but you're right. Armenians should have eastern skin types as well.
And again neither eastern nor hunnic skins are a perfect representative of the Anatolian Turks, but the eastern skin type is much more appropriate than the hunnic one.

CA actually just slap Germanic models with Hunnic facial hair for Avars

Riiight...rigging new man models (the shape) are difficult, but reskinning the skin tones a bit wont be too hard. You got a point there.

Avars were Central Asiatic (some people says they were Turkic some say not) so that would be much more accurate but it will take more time I guess for taking Avar characters and making their skin darker. You guys giving lots of effors and labor on this mod, thats just my guess but maybe u can contact with total war game creators and be able to release the mod as DLC.