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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

  1. #181

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    We're trying to get a campaign ready by the end of the year.
    Is there anything non-code/design related us bystanders can do to help?

  2. #182

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    1. Draft some technology ideas for the research tree.
    2. Determine what buildings each faction has in their cities at start.
    3. Determine where the armies start and what units they compose of.
    4. Help Warman come up with better names than sergeant (lol)
    5. Some research into the Mongolian armies for the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde, as well as the Chinese units and their technologies used by the Mongolians.
    6. There was a thread for unit descriptions I thought was pretty cool. That could be continued.
    7. If somebody is interested in helping to create a unit roster for a faction, and has expressed the ability to be open minded and tolerable to other human beings of their opinions and ideas: I would be happy to teach people how to use the assembly kit tools and participate in the development.
    8. Keep a look out for aesthetic and scripted mods that would serve as an interest to implement to our game, such as that really cool better marriages mod, or certain UI mods.
    9. Draft some ideas for buildings that were used in the Medieval Ages.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    1. Draft some technology ideas for the research tree.
    2. Determine what buildings each faction has in their cities at start.
    3. Determine where the armies start and what units they compose of.
    4. Help Warman come up with better names than sergeant (lol)
    5. Some research into the Mongolian armies for the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde, as well as the Chinese units and their technologies used by the Mongolians.
    6. There was a thread for unit descriptions I thought was pretty cool. That could be continued.
    7. If somebody is interested in helping to create a unit roster for a faction, and has expressed the ability to be open minded and tolerable to other human beings of their opinions and ideas: I would be happy to teach people how to use the assembly kit tools and participate in the development.
    8. Keep a look out for aesthetic and scripted mods that would serve as an interest to implement to our game, such as that really cool better marriages mod, or certain UI mods.
    9. Draft some ideas for buildings that were used in the Medieval Ages.
    Sounds good...Follow up question : is there any organized way to contribute or do we just post things as it comes? Like for example, I'm currently reading The Northern Crusades by Eric Christiansen, which is pretty good at fleshing out the various communities living in the Baltic, the gradual christianisation and the struggle that came with the Baltic crusaders. I could probably contribute a bit regarding the pagans, the Scandinavians, the Rus and the Holy orders, but discussions seem to pop up here and there without any kind of specific discussion threads. So do I just make threads when I feel like I've got valuable info, contact modders part of the team or something else? Like I've got the types of ships that were used around the high Medieval era in the Baltic and some population numbers, important settlements, regional economic activities and the sorts for those groups.

  4. #184

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    I think the best way to contribute would be to join the team and actually work on something. There is a lot to do but either Warman or Sly could be more specific about that, just write them a pm and we/they will see what the best thing would be, I guess.

  5. #185
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    1. Draft some technology ideas for the research tree.
    2. Determine what buildings each faction has in their cities at start.
    3. Determine where the armies start and what units they compose of.
    4. Help Warman come up with better names than sergeant (lol)
    5. Some research into the Mongolian armies for the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde, as well as the Chinese units and their technologies used by the Mongolians.
    6. There was a thread for unit descriptions I thought was pretty cool. That could be continued.
    7. If somebody is interested in helping to create a unit roster for a faction, and has expressed the ability to be open minded and tolerable to other human beings of their opinions and ideas: I would be happy to teach people how to use the assembly kit tools and participate in the development.
    8. Keep a look out for aesthetic and scripted mods that would serve as an interest to implement to our game, such as that really cool better marriages mod, or certain UI mods.
    9. Draft some ideas for buildings that were used in the Medieval Ages.
    I am still working on AoB but once I finish my current side project I would love to work directly on units for this mod, as well as research. If you want a longer list of my own qualifications and/or details I can PM, provided you would like to allow me to join the project in the future.

    I mean...I've played this mod almost daily since the August update came out, feels wrong not to try to contribute back somehow^^
    Last edited by Dontfearme22; September 01, 2016 at 12:41 AM.

  6. #186

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Slytacular for example in Bulgarian cities you could be able to build literary schools.

  7. #187
    finix's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    One of specific buildings of bulgarians will be the iconographic school
    [IMG][/IMG]

  8. #188

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    @Dontfearme22 , I've seen your work on Age of Bronze and your various Warhammer mods too. Feel free to shoot me a PM or steam message.

    I don't have much to say on top of Sly's list. The other thing of note is we could use a modder with more experience with the campaign side. It's still treading new ground and I'm going to be getting busy again over the next couple months. So if anyone WITH EXPERIENCE is interested and able to help us PM one of the senior members(me, Sly or Ltd would be best) when you can.

  9. #189

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    I mean...I've played this mod almost daily since the August update came out, feels wrong not to try to contribute back somehow^^
    If you have a faction in mind you're interested in working on, tell us so we can hold on to that faction for you.

  10. #190

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Re: Sly's suggestions for how us non-coding peasants can help:

    I have a few ideas for buildings/technologies etc. should I conflate them into a single message or just post stuff here as I think of it?

    To get the ball rolling from things i have read about today, the Pecia system would be a cool technology of western factions. It allowed scriptoriums/wokshops to vastly increase the rate at which they could produce manuscripts by dividing them into separate sheets that scribes could use, so rather having one scribe copying a book at a time there could be a couple dozens scribes working on the same book simultaneously. The research it self would give a boost to future research times. There are a bunch of other writing/illumination ones we could have but I dunno how far you should go with that, this total war after all. Edward III had some tax reforms that may be a good basis as well (i will look them up when I get a chance), also the '13th century renaissance' shouldn't be underestimated, there was a huge growth in the study of Aristotle and Pliny at Paris and other universities that could be useful.


    For buildings I was thinking it would make sense to have a dual chain for Catholic religious buildings (like in vanilla attila) with a cathedral branch offering public order and money from culture (i.e. pilgrims' tourism money) and a monastery branch offering sanitation and research bonuses perhaps. Monasteries could also offer a replenishment bonus for the region as many did treat wounded soldiers.

    For the farming chain it would possibly cool to have hunting grounds as an alternative to farming (the idea that the land is kept as forest rather than being cleared for agriculture) but I can't think of a way for this to have a meaningful game impact really.

    Anyway, are these the kind of ideas you were thinking of?

  11. #191

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidhog View Post
    For buildings I was thinking it would make sense to have a dual chain for Catholic religious buildings (like in vanilla attila) with a cathedral branch offering public order and money from culture (i.e. pilgrims' tourism money) and a monastery branch offering sanitation and research bonuses perhaps. Monasteries could also offer a replenishment bonus for the region as many did treat wounded soldiers.
    Actually, that's an awesome idea. But wouldn't it be better to make it into a separate building? I don't think any kind of aqueducts were being built at the time so it could be the main sanitation line for European factions?

    Like you could have an Abbey/Monastery line for cities which would both give santitation + another separate bonus (like research for Abbers and something else for monasteries?). Then a priory line for towns which would gives replenishment and sanitation? Just throwing some ideas out there.

    Crusaders would also get better versions of those buildings since they are quite iconic (like Hospitalier versions for the Crusader states).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidhog View Post
    For the farming chain it would possibly cool to have hunting grounds as an alternative to farming (the idea that the land is kept as forest rather than being cleared for agriculture) but I can't think of a way for this to have a meaningful game impact really.
    There's already a building for hunting grounds (which gives commerce, pelts and food). Though maybe it could be integrated into the agriculture tree instead of being a unique ressource?



    Also thought about this when reading on medieval canonical law. The Decretum Gratiani is a very important piece of work around the time of the game's start that organized the various elements of canonical law in one tome (kind of like the Justinian code did for Roman law). Maybe it could be integrated as part of the edicts for factions that are Catholics? Like 'Institute the Decretum Gratiani', which could give a similar bonus to the Greek christian edict 'Christian progress', up to +4 PO from presence of Catholicism and some other bonus...maybe research (since it helped the study of canonical law) or (stacking) relations with the Pope (not sure how the Papacy will work so this might be too useless)?
    Last edited by zsimmortal; September 02, 2016 at 08:21 AM.

  12. #192
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    I am working on this exact same scotsguard polearm unit... If we are lucky might even make it into the hotfix....
    First let my say this is amazing mod I think I must get Total War Attila

    Here are few more reference pictures for Scots guard:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Also the Duke of Burgundy had similar elite guard unit of English archers:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Is it possible to make the Scots guard unit to use both missile and polearm weapon? I propose the same for Burgundian unit.

    The original unit of French Scots guard should be reworked as Franc-archers unit. It was the first regular French infantry corp in history. They were created by Charles VII in 1448. The corps had 16.000 men.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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    Last edited by tomySVK; September 03, 2016 at 02:43 AM.

  13. #193

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Actually, that's an awesome idea. But wouldn't it be better to make it into a separate building? I don't think any kind of aqueducts were being built at the time so it could be the main sanitation line for European factions?

    Like you could have an Abbey/Monastery line for cities which would both give santitation + another separate bonus (like research for Abbers and something else for monasteries?). Then a priory line for towns which would gives replenishment and sanitation? Just throwing some ideas out there.

    Crusaders would also get better versions of those buildings since they are quite iconic (like Hospitalier versions for the Crusader states).
    Yup that makes sense

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    There's already a building for hunting grounds (which gives commerce, pelts and food). Though maybe it could be integrated into the agriculture tree instead of being a unique ressource?
    I was thinking less of hunting as unique resource (which would be good for representing fur and scent trades which were both hugely lucrative) but more deciding whether to encourage crop growth or allowing the nobility to maintain the land for hunting and recreation. I dunno it was just an idea, I can't think anyway it would be preferable to make noble hunting grounds as it would produce less food and money and would logically lower public order as I'm guessing the public don't like being told to keep off the land!

    Another idea I had was 'royal knightly order technology' for order of the garter type organisations that could lower recruitment time or cost for knightly units or maybe increasing morale or experience.
    Blast furnaces appeared in Europe in the 13th century I believe, which produced better quality and quantity iron.
    Eyeglasses are mentioned by Francis Bacon in 13th century which were pretty important for allowing academics to have far longer careers (another research boost?)
    Spinning wheel is the same period, increase in agricultural output?
    Treadwheel Crane - lower building construction times

    OK these are just from the wikipedia page on medieval inventions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology):
    Chimney 12th century but could be a good technology for lowering squalor
    Stationary Harbour crane - increase in money from maritime trade
    Comound Crank 'The Italian physician Guido da Vigevano combines in his 1335 Texaurus, a collection of war machines intended for the recapture of the Holy Land, two simple cranks to form a compound crank for manually powering war carriages and paddle wheel boats. The devices were fitted directly to the vehicle's axle respectively to the shafts turning the paddle wheels' - siege tech
    Astronomical compass - increase naval movement speed
    Paper - more efficient tax system? I dunno

    Anyway some ideas for 'technology' type research, I will think about 'philosophy' and 'policy' type stuff too

  14. #194

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidhog View Post
    Another idea I had was 'royal knightly order technology' for order of the garter type organisations that could lower recruitment time or cost for knightly units or maybe increasing morale or experience.
    Personally, my idea for retinue technology would be more akin to a simple 'Payment for Service' tech around the mid tier. Medieval communities could answer the call to war by providing soldiers (which laws dictated were x per x citizens of an urban or rural community) or by paying money. Since money was generally better for everyone involved, as nobles could then pay their retainers, contracted subjects or for mercenaries instead of having less trained or well-equipped troops, and conscripted soldiers could only be levied for a set period of time (40 days I believe in France and England, might be wrong). I'm not sure when it became prevalent, but it was definitely the case during the HYW, where mercenaries were quite numerous. Early to mid 14th century for a tech like this should work out (so around mid-tier).

    I'm not sure how they want to implement levy vs. retinue troops (or if they even want to), but it could be something like reducing retinue upkeep costs, upping high tier unit limits (if at all possible) or simply something akin to your suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidhog View Post
    Blast furnaces appeared in Europe in the 13th century I believe, which produced better quality and quantity iron.
    Eyeglasses are mentioned by Francis Bacon in 13th century which were pretty important for allowing academics to have far longer careers (another research boost?)
    Spinning wheel is the same period, increase in agricultural output?
    Treadwheel Crane - lower building construction times

    OK these are just from the wikipedia page on medieval inventions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology):
    Chimney 12th century but could be a good technology for lowering squalor
    Stationary Harbour crane - increase in money from maritime trade
    Comound Crank 'The Italian physician Guido da Vigevano combines in his 1335 Texaurus, a collection of war machines intended for the recapture of the Holy Land, two simple cranks to form a compound crank for manually powering war carriages and paddle wheel boats. The devices were fitted directly to the vehicle's axle respectively to the shafts turning the paddle wheels' - siege tech
    Astronomical compass - increase naval movement speed
    Paper - more efficient tax system? I dunno

    Anyway some ideas for 'technology' type research, I will think about 'philosophy' and 'policy' type stuff too
    Compass and gunpowder (weapons) should be added for major inventions, though I'm not sure how we could implement the compass in any other scenario than military tech (since I figure extra move range and immunity to high sea attrition would be probably the most appropriate boosts it could give).

  15. #195

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    @zsimmortal, about your earlier question. If you would like to create your own thread for a particular subject feel free. I'll see if I can make a few threads myself that can be useful to the team that the public can contribute.

    Compass would already be invented.

    1456 Comet Halley is first observed in European records.

    14th century cathedral mechanical clocks

    Jacob's staff (cross-staff) in the 14th century

    Hourglass reappeared during the 14th century

    Horary Quadrant (possibly 13th century?)

    Nocturnal (possibly 12th-13th century?)
    Last edited by Slytacular; September 08, 2016 at 11:13 AM.

  16. #196

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    Compass would already be invented.
    In China, but I distinctly remember the compass becoming a thing in the high middle ages. Looking at wiki, this is what I get (for what the mod covers) :

    Alexander Neckam reported the use of a magnetic compass for the region of the English Channel in the texts De utensilibus and De naturis rerum,[46] written between 1187 and 1202, after he returned to England from France[47] and prior to entering the Augustinian abbey at Cirencester.[48] Robert Southey suggested that the Siete Partidas contained a reference from the 1250s to the needle being used for navigation.[49] In 1269 Petrus Peregrinus of Maricourt described a floating compass for astronomical purposes as well as a dry compass for seafaring, in his well-known Epistola de magnete.[46] In the Mediterranean, the introduction of the compass, at first only known as a magnetized pointer floating in a bowl of water,[50] went hand in hand with improvements in dead reckoning methods, and the development of Portolan charts, leading to more navigation during winter months in the second half of the 13th century.[51] While the practice from ancient times had been to curtail sea travel between October and April, due in part to the lack of dependable clear skies during the Mediterranean winter, the prolongation of the sailing season resulted in a gradual, but sustained increase in shipping movement; by around 1290 the sailing season could start in late January or February, and end in December.[52] The additional few months were of considerable economic importance. For instance, it enabled Venetian convoys to make two round trips a year to the Levant, instead of one.[53]
    At the same time, traffic between the Mediterranean and northern Europe also increased, with first evidence of direct commercial voyages from the Mediterranean into the English Channel coming in the closing decades of the 13th century, and one factor may be that the compass made traversal of the Bay of Biscay safer and easier.[54] However, critics like Kreutz have suggested that it was later in 1410 that anyone really started steering by compass.

    The earliest reference to an iron fish-like compass in the Islamic world occurs in a Persian book from 1232.[38] This fish shape was from a typical early Chinese design.[41] The earliest Arabic reference to a compass, in the form of magnetic needle in a bowl of water, comes from the Yemeni Sultan and astronomer Al-Ashraf in 1282.[39] He also appears to be the first to make use of the compass for astronomical purposes.[56] Since the author describes having witnessed the use of a compass on a ship trip some forty years earlier, some scholars are inclined to antedate its first appearance in the Arab world accordingly.[38] In addition he reports that on the Indian Ocean floating compasses with a hollow floating fish made of sheet-iron were used.[17]
    In 1300, another Arabic treatise written by the Egyptian astronomer and muezzin Ibn Simʿūn describes a dry compass for use as a "Qibla (Kabba) indicator" to find the direction to Mecca. Like Peregrinus' compass, however, Ibn Simʿūn's compass did not feature a compass card.[46] In the 14th century, the Syrian astronomer and timekeeperIbn al-Shatir (1304–1375) invented a timekeeping device incorporating both a universal sundial and a magnetic compass. He invented it for the purpose of finding the times ofsalat prayers.[57] Arab navigators also introduced the 32-point compass rose during this time.[58] In 1399, an Egyptian reports two different kinds of magnetic compass. One instrument is a “fish” made of willow wood or pumpkin, into which a magnetic needle is inserted and which afterwards is sealed with tar or wax to prevent the penetration of water. The other instrument is a dry compass.[17]

    The dry mariner's compass was invented in Europe around 1300. The dry mariner's compass consists of three elements: A freely pivoting needle on a pin enclosed in a little box with a glass cover and a wind rose, whereby "the wind rose or compass card is attached to a magnetized needle in such a manner that when placed on a pivot in a box fastened in line with the keel of the ship the card would turn as the ship changed direction, indicating always what course the ship was on".[3] Later, compasses were often fitted into a gimbal mounting to reduce grounding of the needle or card when used on the pitching and rolling deck of a ship.
    While pivoting needles in glass boxes had already been described by the French scholar Peter Peregrinus in 1269,[63] and by the Egyptian scholar Ibn Simʿūn in 1300,[46]traditionally Flavio Gioja (fl. 1302), an Italian pilot from Amalfi, has been credited with perfecting the sailor's compass by suspending its needle over a compass card, thus giving the compass its familiar appearance.[64] Such a compass with the needle attached to a rotating card is also described in a commentary on Dante's Divine Comedy from 1380, while an earlier source refers to a portable compass in a box (1318),[65] supporting the notion that the dry compass was known in Europe by then.[31]
    Last edited by zsimmortal; September 08, 2016 at 05:31 PM.

  17. #197
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tomySVK View Post
    First let my say this is amazing mod I think I must get Total War Attila

    Here are few more reference pictures for Scots guard:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Also the Duke of Burgundy had similar elite guard unit of English archers:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Is it possible to make the Scots guard unit to use both missile and polearm weapon? I propose the same for Burgundian unit.

    The original unit of French Scots guard should be reworked as Franc-archers unit. It was the first regular French infantry corp in history. They were created by Charles VII in 1448. The corps had 16.000 men.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    > The Best Forums in History: ">
    Great stuff

  18. #198
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    Great stuff
    Thanks, I hope it helped.

  19. #199
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    @ Ltd. and warman222

    Sorry guys for the mess from the other threads and thank you for the lesson. I'm used to having work threads in the dev subforums.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Anyway this is a reediting of the previous posts choosing only original sources, namely Othodox church paintings and icons preserving the Byzantine art, style and iconography. From generation to generation depictions were copied or redone but the original Byzantine gear was preserved in paintings only being replaced with western gear in isolated locations and cases.

    Again sorry for beign so annoying only that I think some info has been left out, from my point of view, especially the circular armor later copied by the Ottomans for their Sipahi should be introduced as it was a identification mark.



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Byzantine Units:

    CAVALRY

    Byzantine mixed lance, spatha sword and bow cavalrymen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 











































    Byzantine reformed cavalry, west style

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    FOOT

    Reformed Varangian Guard

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Spear

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






































    Sword

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


















    ARCHERS

    Bow

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Bow and spear

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Serbian and Byzantine Mixed Infantry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Serbian and Byzantine Spear Guards

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Serbian and Byzantine Sword Guards

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Serbian and Byzantine Archer Guard

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Serbian and Byzantine Archer, Spear and Sword

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Last edited by Visarion; October 09, 2016 at 08:29 AM.

  20. #200

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Much better dude. I really appreciate you adjusting that. Also thanks for avoiding using Osprey pics, however useful they might be they aren't allowed on TWC.

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