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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

  1. #281
    M.A.E's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Many factions will not historically live for more than few years ...i.e (khwarzm empire,replaced by mongols)(Ayyubids replaced by mamluks sultanate)(Seljuk's replaced by ottomans) .... Now if someone wants to play with a ottoman empire and only Seljuk's is available from start..thus a reforming script would be made if Seljuk's destroys ottoman the could be changed to ottoman empire as a name (I think it is like Rome 2 rebellion script) and the ottomans units would be available to the Seljuk's ....
    Yeah ! It is a great turn but I think it could be done ..and would be awesome to try empire reforming and get the defeated empire legacy by an option ....

  2. #282
    hessam's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by M.A.E View Post
    Many factions will not historically live for more than few years ...i.e (khwarzm empire,replaced by mongols)(Ayyubids replaced by mamluks sultanate)(Seljuk's replaced by ottomans) .... Now if someone wants to play with a ottoman empire and only Seljuk's is available from start..thus a reforming script would be made if Seljuk's destroys ottoman the could be changed to ottoman empire as a name (I think it is like Rome 2 rebellion script) and the ottomans units would be available to the Seljuk's ....
    Yeah ! It is a great turn but I think it could be done ..and would be awesome to try empire reforming and get the defeated empire legacy by an option ....
    This is not really a favorable approach. Ottomans, for example, is the name of a dynasty, that of Osman (But of course you already know that). I can't conceive why the Seljuks would wanna be named after a dynasty they don't belong to. And Seljuks of Rum's high and late era units are already based on the Ottomans.

  3. #283

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by M.A.E View Post
    Many factions will not historically live for more than few years ...i.e (khwarzm empire,replaced by mongols)(Ayyubids replaced by mamluks sultanate)(Seljuk's replaced by ottomans) .... Now if someone wants to play with a ottoman empire and only Seljuk's is available from start..thus a reforming script would be made if Seljuk's destroys ottoman the could be changed to ottoman empire as a name (I think it is like Rome 2 rebellion script) and the ottomans units would be available to the Seljuk's ....
    Yeah ! It is a great turn but I think it could be done ..and would be awesome to try empire reforming and get the defeated empire legacy by an option ....
    The kingdom scripts don't work like that AFAIK. That said, we only bother with a historically accurate 1212 starting position. From that point, it is game on. And it is really starting to be irritating to have to answer this every few days or weeks because people whine about not having 'their' factions as playable. Make your own mod if you're not happy.

    As stated just before me, dynasties wouldn't change names for the sake of it. I get that some factions that people want to play (e.g. Mamluks, Ottomans) aren't available, but the units the factions they replaced are based on those, so it's not like you'd get a much different experience, just a slightly different name and colour scheme. I'm pretty sure the day the campaign is released, there will be submods that change the Ayyubids to Mamluks and the Rum Seljuks to Ottomans, so just wait it out, I'm sure you'll end up getting exactly what you want.
    Last edited by zsimmortal; April 27, 2017 at 07:08 AM.

  4. #284

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    I don't know if this thread could be destined to this sort of intervention but I'd like to recommend a lot an actual reading, "War in the middle Ages" by Philippe Contamine. Some of you if not all most probably know its existence but this book could be more than useful to the modders, not only for P. Contamine's own research but also for its very complete table of sources, both ancient materials and contemporary researchers' writings.

  5. #285
    M.A.E's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    I am not saying that .....lets clear it out ...
    -if a faction rebels with a general (historical character like Aybak al muizii of mamluks) the player could choose to support rebellion and abandon his faction or play with faction against rebellion

    -if he choose the starting faction the uprising rebellion would act as the throne hungry rebel and the player is the rightful ruler and vice versa .. That's will affect on diplomacy and people

    - the reforming legacy of a defeated empire is historic .. If you play with austria you subjugate 70% of the total states and form the holy roman empire under your family tree rule

    -when a faction die its throne could be given to the invader (England invade France and Henry has the throne) this makes the rebels in invaded faction test of subjugation and give the test of Authorization

    -to sum up I says this as an in-game available script found in vanilla Attila it is not a silly dream of a guy who wants to play ottomans .ha!
    Last edited by M.A.E; April 27, 2017 at 03:26 PM.

  6. #286
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    If the Kwarazmians evolve into Ak Qoyunlu and Safavids then will the Zangids evolve into Jalayrids and Kara Koyunlu!?

  7. #287
    nnnm's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Zangids more similar to Ayyubids and Mamluks than later tribal confederations and thier Mamluk who was Austadar of Nur Adin Arsalan was the one who ruling Mousl in fact


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  8. #288

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    I have quite a bit of back reading to do but are there some specifics anyone wants me to attempt to look up about Venice? Hello Everyone.

  9. #289
    TheMrVister's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread


  10. #290

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Hm, where do I begin...
    I was very late to the party so to speak since I bought Total War Attila relatively recently.

    Now I realized that many factions (especially Poland and Teutonic Order) could probably use some improvements but I don't know if you're still working on those specific unit rosters or not so I'm not sure if I even should post about it tbh.

    Anyway, here are some sugestions about Polish unit roster:

    All tiers:
    Firstly, the mounted sergeants. The idea of "sergeant" sounds a bit... off for a medieval Poland. I would suggest changing their name to simple and more accurate "retainers". That would fit way better.

    Tier 2:

    Pavise Crossbowmen: As far as I know tier 2 is supposed to represent the time frame between years 1300-1400. If so then it is too early for the appearance of pavises in the Polish Army. Despite the fact that the immediate neighbors of the Kingdom of Poland already used pavises (like Prussians, Teutonic Order, and Lithuania) Poles didn't adapt them till the early 1400s. My suggestion would be to remove the "pavise" part of their name and replace their pavises with some regular triangle shields. That way the balance will stay the same while improving the historical accuracy a bit.

    Pavise Spearmen: Same as Pavise Crossbowmen, maybe call them "Spear Militia"?

    Lithuanian Archers: I'm not sure what to do with this unit. One the one side, Lithuanians actually rarely gave any military support to Poles and with exception of the Great War against the Teutonic Order Poles and Lithuanians almost never fought side by side before the end of XV century, on the other however I'm not sure what other unit I could suggest to keep the balance and don't make playing Poland boring. Maybe change the name to Ruthenian Archers instead? (the Kingdom of Poland owned Ruthenian lands). That way it would be a bit more historically accurate.

    Lithuanian Cavalry: Same as Lithuanian archers, their name could be changed to Ruthenian Cavalry instead. It would make much more sense.

    Heavy Axemen: They aren't historically accurate either but I'm sure you knew that already, I bet you guys implemented them for balance and to make gameplay fun so I won't be complaining especially that I have no idea for a replacement.

    German Men-at-Arms: I'm not sure about that one. I don't think that Polish kings ever made extensive use of German mercenaries at the time. Most mercenaries in Poland were usually of Silesian, Czech (like Jan Zizka himself), Moravian or Hungarian origin. Not only that but Holy Roman Emperors did once or twice outright banned German knights (Bohemians didn't give a s....t) from providing their services to Kings of Poland as they most of the time fought against Teutonic Order. Maybe changing to just "Foreign Men-at-Arms" or even "Bohemian Men-at-Arms"? I don't know it would be mostly cosmetic so I live it up to you.

    Tier 3
    The times represented by Tier 3 were a time of swift transition in Kingdom of Poland from using feudal armies to professional ones. It would be nice if the roster would reflect that better. It was also a time when Polish armies adopted the use of wagenburgs (wagon forts).

    Pavise Spearmen: Although Poles started using pavises and professional Men-at-Arms in XV century I don't think any of the surviving rolls ever mention a single man-at-arms using a combination of spear and pavise. Instead, most of the pavisemen (outside of crossbowmen and handgunners constituting about 70% of all Polish infantry) were armed with swords, messers and sabres. So my suggestion would be to change them to "Pavise Swordsmen" and as the name suggests equip them with a combination of arming sword and pavise shield. I guess levy pavise spearmen should be left out for balance reasons.

    Levy Halberdiers and Halberdiers: There is one little problem... During the whole medieval history of the Kingdom of Poland halberds were NEVER used. The closest area were halberds were in popular use was Silesia which at that time was already a part of the Kingdom of Bohemia. And as shocking as it may sound there are virtually now archeological findings or written sources that could confirm that halberds were ever used in Poland before the beginning of the XVI century. They do appear, although rarely in iconography but exclusively in hands of "bad guys". If you are not aware of this, in medieval iconography there was a trend/rule that weapons that appear foreign were often given to the characters representing "bad guys" in any given scene. There is a term for that in English historiography but I just can't recall it.
    I think it would be a good idea to change them to Levy Voulgiers and Voulgiers respectively which should be easy since they are already present in the mod.

    Levy Pikemen: Now, this is problematic as well since pikes have seen barely any use in Poland before the second half of the XVI century. I didn't mention it in Tier 2 since I had no idea how to replace them in the years 1300-1400. There are certain ways to go about it in the time period between 1400-1500. Namely at the turn of XV and XVI century, the new type of infantry was introduced into the Polish Army. Kopijnicy - literally Lancers. The name may cause some confusion since there were two unit types of this name in Poland, one being a type of heavy infantry and the second being a type of heavy cavalry which was basically a Polish equivalent of French gendarmes. One, however, wasn't a dismounted version of the other, they were two separate things.
    But, back to the topic. Said Foot Lancers constituted about 10% of Polish infantry. They were equipped with full plate armours, long spears, and longswords as their side weapons. But with time pikes also got more and more popular I will put a fragment of the painting depicting the Battle of Orsha (year 1514) in the spoiler. You can see the foot lancers in the first row of infantry and at the bottom

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Since the pikes in the mod aren't that long, to begin with, I think you could replace the tier 3 pikemen from Polish roster with Foot Lancers and since most of the time said foot lancers were also NCOs you could call them Pikemen Sergeants for simplicity. Although I would advocate using the name Foot Lancers.

    Heavy Axemen: Once again, a unit that appeared in tier 2 already but I can't think of any historical replacements. In Tier 3 however, that could be replaced with Flailmen. Yes, Flailmen weren't exclusive to Bohemian Hussites. Later Polish Kings were recruiting them too, either from Bohemia as mercenaries or from local men. I know implementing actual flails in the engine would be a nightmare but from what I remember you guys went around it and simply equipped Bohemian flailmen with two-handed maces. I think flailmen should replace heavy axemen. They can be equipped with armour since in Poland they weren't some peasant volunteers but professional soldiers.

    German Men-at-Arms: At the beginning of my "evaluation" of Tier 3 I mentioned that the XV century in the Kingdom of Poland (like in most of Europe) was a time of transition from feudal armies to professional ones. I don't think that German Men-at-Arms fit here at all. At the time mounted Man-at-Arms or "Lancers" were mostly recruited from Polish Nobility. Germans, just like Czechs, would mostly find their way into Polish infantry. So I think that this unit should be changed into simply Men-at-Arms of Lancers and be a better version of regular feudal Polish knights (since they would be more disciplined and trained to use more complicated formations and maneuvers).

    Sources (most of them):
    A. Nadolski Polska technika wojskowa do 1500 roku (Polish military technology up to year 1500)
    A. Nadolski Grunwald 1410
    j. Sikorski (and many others) Polskie tradycje wojskowe. Tradycje walk obronnych z najazdami Niemców, Krzyżaków, Szwedów, Turków i Tatarów X-XVII w.(Polish military traditions. Traditions of defense struggles with the invasions of the Germans, Teutonic Knights, Swedes, Turks and Tartars in 10th-17th centuries)
    M. Bogacki Broń wojsk polskich w okresie średniowiecza (Weapons of the Polish army in the Middle Ages)


    That would be it for now. Depending on how useful you'll find my feedback then I can post some more info about the Teutonic unit roster and other Central-Eastern Europan factions. I know you guys have to find a balance between fun gameplay, historical accuracy and well... balance. I'm not pushing since you already have to put a lot of work in the mod and might find changing already functioning army roster redundant as it could more work than it is worth. Anyway, good luck with your work.
    Last edited by Kamil Szadkowski; December 22, 2019 at 09:47 PM.

  11. #291

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Thanks for suggestion but I disagree with you, the Polish roster is as good as it is. Your unit suggestion doesn't make any sense. It is well researched and balanced roster. That's it.

  12. #292

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by banskie100 View Post
    Thanks for suggestion but I disagree with you, the Polish roster is as good as it is. Your unit suggestion doesn't make any sense. It is well researched and balanced roster. That's it.
    I agree that it is balanced, but it is anything BUT well researched.

  13. #293
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    I agree with Kamil - the roster is not very accurate historically. His remarks are very to the point, he provides also the right bibliography.

    I've enjoyed playing Malopolska (btw, this term came into use as late as 15th century ;-) and I think the MKTW is a true gem of modding, but I also think there's a long way ahead to polish the mod - as it was with so many mods for the Medieval 2.

    I hope a common efforts and openess to the opinions of the players will help to develop the mod to be very historical and fun for gamers :-)

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  14. #294

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    For those who didn't know, before I revamped the Polish roster. I have consulted many Polish guys (as a respect) on our Discord channel who has a full background around Polish army organization. We've spent many days debating, crafting the units backed with real sources and not just making them "oh make this unit, this looks cool, make them this and that" style.


    1. Typical Western feudal armies always had their "retainers", so why make a unit called "retainers"? Is this somewhat a Medieval 2 Total War trope?

    T2

    2. "Pavise Crossbowmen: As far as I know tier 2 is supposed to represent the time frame between years 1300-1400. If so then it is too early for the appearance of pavises in the Polish Army. Despite the fact that the immediate neighbors of the Kingdom of Poland already used pavises (like Prussians, Teutonic Order, and Lithuania) Poles didn't adapt them till the early 1400s. My suggestion would be to remove the "pavise" part of their name and replace their pavises with some regular triangle shields. That way the balance will stay the same while improving the historical accuracy a bit."

    -We the team decided to depict the tier 2 rosters to be in 1350-1400, where the Pavise were already spreading throughout Europe. Also, I used a specific Baltic pavise design which is unique only in Baltic areas. Why on earth Poles didn't have to adopt the Pavise shields where it is already being used by their neighbors? Suggesting triangle shields which is already obsolete during the late 14th century. Instead,I gave them enlarged Baltic Pavises.

    3. Poles in game lacks archers,to remedy this, we gave them Lithuanian archers which is abundant. Lithuanian Archers could've just been a mercenary unit but included them in Polish roster.

    4. Heavy Axemen, could've just not been included but they don't have shock infantry.

    5. How come "banning" be effective where there is no unification in HRE states? German nobles/gentlemen is always available for adventure and for hire.

    T3

    6. "Pavise Spearmen: Although Poles started using pavises and professional Men-at-Arms in XV century I don't think any of the surviving rolls ever mention a single man-at-arms using a combination of spear and pavise. Instead, most of the pavisemen (outside of crossbowmen and handgunners constituting about 70% of all Polish infantry) were armed with swords, messers and sabres. So my suggestion would be to change them to "Pavise Swordsmen" and as the name suggests equip them with a combination of arming sword and pavise shield. I guess levy pavise spearmen should be left out for balance reasons."

    -Most of western and central european armies of this time used spear with pavises and why on earth they wouldn't have those? Pavise Spearmen in the game supposed to represent soldiers who came from the Polish cities and towns while the levy soldiers, came from the Levies summoned by the Polish Kings. And why would you replace the Pavise Spearmen with Pavise Swordsmen where there is already "Junior Knights"? Junior Knights could've been not existed, but due to debates, agreements and balances, I have decided to include them.

    7. "Levy Halberdiers and Halberdiers: There is one little problem... During the whole medieval history of the Kingdom of Poland halberds were NEVER used. The closest area were halberds were in popular use was Silesia which at that time was already a part of the Kingdom of Bohemia. And as shocking as it may sound there are virtually now archeological findings or written sources that could confirm that halberds were ever used in Poland before the beginning of the XVI century. They do appear, although rarely in iconography but exclusively in hands of "bad guys". If you are not aware of this, in medieval iconography there was a trend/rule that weapons that appear foreign were often given to the characters representing "bad guys" in any given scene. There is a term for that in English historiography but I just can't recall it.I think it would be a good idea to change them to Levy Voulgiers and Voulgiers respectively which should be easy since they are already present in the mod."

    -I don't know where did you based your statement that "Halberds were never used in Poland", for your information, Medieval Poland were HEAVILY influenced by the German states in terms of weapons and armours. Im kinda disagree that the Polish would not have to adopt the new inventions during the era. Are you really sure about that? Maybe you could have state the real source with quotes ("").

    8. "Levy Pikemen: Now, this is problematic as well since pikes have seen barely any use in Poland before the second half of the XVI century. I didn't mention it in Tier 2 since I had no idea how to replace them in the years 1300-1400. There are certain ways to go about it in the time period between 1400-1500. Namely at the turn of XV and XVI century, the new type of infantry was introduced into the Polish Army. Kopijnicy - literally Lancers. The name may cause some confusion since there were two unit types of this name in Poland, one being a type of heavy infantry and the second being a type of heavy cavalry which was basically a Polish equivalent of French gendarmes. One, however, wasn't a dismounted version of the other, they were two separate things.
    But, back to the topic. Said Foot Lancers constituted about 10% of Polish infantry. They were equipped with full plate armours, long spears, and longswords as their side weapons. But with time pikes also got more and more popular I will put a fragment of the painting depicting the Battle of Orsha (year 1514) in the spoiler. You can see the foot lancers in the first row of infantry and at the bottom"

    -the Levy pikemen in tier 2 is just a dual wield long spear armed infantry. Used as a stationary troops to defend the crossbowmen from the cavalry. Can you state the REAL sources of the "Foot Lancers" existence? And your provided image is outside of our timeframe. I am very skeptical of things that is outside of our timeframe.

    9. Heavy Axemen, I'm still not convinced. State your sources about flailmen.

    10. "German Men-at-Arms: At the beginning of my "evaluation" of Tier 3 I mentioned that the XV century in the Kingdom of Poland (like in most of Europe) was a time of transition from feudal armies to professional ones. I don't think that German Men-at-Arms fit here at all. At the time mounted Man-at-Arms or "Lancers" were mostly recruited from Polish Nobility. Germans, just like Czechs, would mostly find their way into Polish infantry. So I think that this unit should be changed into simply Men-at-Arms of Lancers and be a better version of regular feudal Polish knights (since they would be more disciplined and trained to use more complicated formations and maneuvers)."

    -well, late 15th century Polish nobles is not very reliable in terms of being called to war, and thus Polish King relied very on mercenaries during this time, again from Bohemian and German lands.

    I, in the team volunteered to finish and end all revamps except (updating few latest assets) as possible. There is no perfect mod to be as accurate as in real life. Keep in mind, sometimes historical accuracy is being sacrificed for gameplay reasons. No matter how you declare it already perfect or not. Do note that we don't heavily rely on the Osprey Illustrations like the Medieval 2 mods and submods did as some of it is just silly fantasy images.

  15. #295

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    As a Spaniard who lives close to the frontier with Portugal I can attest that its a bit wierd that northern portugal's capital is guimaraes instead of way more important places like Braga (Bracara Augusta, former capital of the Suevi Kingdom) or O Porto, wich are usually the ones showing up there in maps about medieval portugal. Wasn't guimaraes actually quite small in comparison? Theres other stuff thats a bit odd like the Navarre province/provinces but i guess thats a compromise for gameplay.

    I also have my doubts about southern Spain being called "Andalusia" already in the 13th century, wasnt that name for the whole peninsula back then? Wouldnt the region of modern day Andalucia be still called Betica back then, like in the roman days?

  16. #296
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    why is Bohemia so strong?

  17. #297

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    because that's how we are ...:smích:

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