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Thread: Feedback: Elves

  1. #161

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    I think Dain's point was just that the Elven/Dwarven BG units are really tough... tougher than anything in any mannish army. He was using reason to justify an unavoidable game mechanic, something you have to do in any TW game (or any game, for that matter).
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  2. #162

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Yes but what he said is that the current procedure is more logical than the standard one. I was arguing against that because I still considered it possible for people to revolt from elven or dwarven rule.

  3. #163

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    My thoughts from playing the elves.
    1. The economy is frustrating. Seems like a fine choice though for limitations. I do like what someone suggested early where the initial provinces are more profitable but conquered territory is less profitable (than it is currently). This would make turtling more viable, which I believe it should be.
    2. Lorien is super underdeveloped in my opinion. That is kind of strange to me.
    3. Elves are great but are limited in expansion by the population. This is a great game decision in my opinion. There troops are unbeatable until Adunabar trolls arrive. One unit of trolls smashed two BG units when crossing a ford. That was rough.

    Overall I really like it but don't like that expansion seems pretty necessary. I just want to retake Rivendell and then hang out and develop all of my cities until the unwashed hoards of barbarians and men need to be beaten away from my trees.

  4. #164

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    To question 2 I suspect that this has to do with the fact that at the beginning of the fourth age a large part of the elven population of Lorien had sailed west, although I do agree somewhat and Think that they should at least have the gardens of the golden light because that seems a pretty iconic Lorien building.

  5. #165

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by caspoi View Post
    To question 2 I suspect that this has to do with the fact that at the beginning of the fourth age a large part of the elven population of Lorien had sailed west, although I do agree somewhat and Think that they should at least have the gardens of the golden light because that seems a pretty iconic Lorien building.
    I do get that to an extent, but Lorien was pretty much the height of Elven power (in my opinion). Without it having been taken or completely deserted, it doesn't make much sense to have it so barren.

    Also, I wish threshold troops were better. They are such a drain on the elves because they eat up so much manpower without being all that great. Maybe add some armor?

  6. #166

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by inge View Post
    Also, I wish threshold troops were better. They are such a drain on the elves because they eat up so much manpower without being all that great. Maybe add some armor?
    I don't think you are required to use them. The game balance frowns upon disbanding mannish units in Elvish cities to bolster recruit-able population, but there is no reason, lore-wise, you should not disband your threshold troops in cities where you can produce more useful units.

  7. #167

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    I don't think you are required to use them. The game balance frowns upon disbanding mannish units in Elvish cities to bolster recruit-able population, but there is no reason, lore-wise, you should not disband your threshold troops in cities where you can produce more useful units.
    That is a fair point and I do that. It just feels weird to have every elven unit be great or amazing except for threshold troops.

    On a different note, I like that the limited income of the elves means that you can either develop the mannish cities you take or get your elven cities growing, but you generally can't do as much of both as you want. It is just good that you are forced to make meaningful tradeoffs, which is what any good game should be doing.

  8. #168
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    As Capsoi has stated Lorien being abandoned early in the Fourth Age is very much cannon. Those that didn't go West with Galadriel resettled in East Lorien and its arguable that by the time Arwen went there to die (200 odd years before mod start) it was completely abandoned. Because it is such an iconic place we have gone with an interpretation that some elves at least continued to live there so that somewhat (though never completely) restoring it to its former glory can be one of the goals of the campaign.

    Threshold troops are still rather awesome when you compare them to other factions units, especially given their low tier though it is very much the idea that you will want to replace them with better troops as soon as the facilities and funds become available.

  9. #169

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by webba84 View Post
    As Capsoi has stated Lorien being abandoned early in the Fourth Age is very much cannon. Those that didn't go West with Galadriel resettled in East Lorien and its arguable that by the time Arwen went there to die (200 odd years before mod start) it was completely abandoned. Because it is such an iconic place we have gone with an interpretation that some elves at least continued to live there so that somewhat (though never completely) restoring it to its former glory can be one of the goals of the campaign.
    Ah. I didn't realize that. Makes sense then.

  10. #170

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Just a few things about the names, if you haven't cleared it up somewhat already:

    The names are tricky to get right, I don't think your current approach is very good. It seems like you've taken names of all the most well known elves and put them into the names list. This is wrong since it's presumed that two elves never wore the same name (at least not at the same time and place) and no one would be given the same name as a well known character from the noble houses or the like. Take for example the character in Caras Galadhon whom you've named "Elladan", but who is not the son of Elrond but rather of the Nandor and the "House of Ithilbor" (which in itself is very unlikely); It's even worse with the character who's posted in Amon Lanc whom you've called "Eöl" (the name of a certain "Dark Elf" of the FA). You also have Daeron, Voronwë, and Fingon in Lindon...

    Here's the names list:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ;;=======
    ;;=Elves=
    ;;=======


    faction: sarmatians


    characters
    Aegnor
    Aerandir
    Amdir
    Amras
    Amrod
    Amroth
    Angrod
    Annael
    Aranwe
    Arminas
    Arothir
    Artaher
    Atanalcar
    Aulendil
    Beleg
    Caranthir
    Celeborn
    Celebrimbor
    Celegorm
    Cirdan
    Curufin
    Cuthalion
    Daeron
    Denethor
    Dior
    Duilin
    Earendil
    Ecthelion
    Edennil
    Edrahil
    Egalmoth
    Eldarion
    Elemmakil
    Elladan
    Elmo
    Elrohir
    Elrond
    Elros
    Elu
    Elured
    Elurin
    Elwe
    Enerdhil
    Eol
    Ereinion
    Erestor
    Errelont
    Falathar
    Feanor
    Finarfin
    Fingolfin
    Fingon
    Finrod
    Finwe
    Galad
    Galadhon
    Galathil
    Galathir
    Galdor
    Galion
    Gelmir
    Gildor
    Gilfanon
    Gil-galad
    Glorfindel
    Guilin
    Gwindor
    Haldir
    Hendor
    Ingil
    Inglor
    Ingwe
    Ingwion
    Ithilbor
    Legolas
    Lenwe
    Lindir
    Mablung
    Maedhros
    Maeglin
    Maglor
    Mahtan
    Manwendil
    Nolondil
    Olwe
    Orodreth
    Oromendil
    Oropher
    Orophin
    Pengolodh
    Penlod
    Quennar
    Rog
    Rumil
    Saeros
    Salgant
    Thingol
    Thranduil
    Turgon
    Voronwe


    women
    Altariel
    Aredhel
    Artanis
    Arwen
    Celebrian
    Celebrindal
    Elwing
    Faelivrin
    Feiniel
    Finduilas
    Galadhriel
    Galadriel
    Idril
    Luthien
    Melian
    Mithrellas
    Nellas
    Nerwen
    Nimloth
    Nimrodel
    Tinuviel
    Amarie
    Anaire
    Earwen
    Edhellos
    Elenwe
    Findis
    Indis
    Irime
    Miriel
    Nerdanel


    It's quite obvious that this will lead to awkward results in the end, and I presume that you have refrained from fiddling too much with the names and thus only given the above names as placeholders for wont of anything better.
    If you intend to make a better names list at some point, you could create the Elvish names from these templates: Sindar, Nandor, Noldor (You'd need to combine the Quenya/Noldorin list with this, but I'd recommend leaving out these names since most Noldor would have departed and many of them would be using Sindarin names anyway)


    (As a side note, you should place Glorfindel in the House of Fingolfin rather than that of Finwë - even better to place him in his own house, "House of the Golden Flower" - then again, this whole "House" business will lead to lore breaking and should rather be abandoned in my opinion.)


    PS.

    I almost forgot, I made this table for a project recently, for anyone who's still a bit confused about the sundering of the Elves.
    Last edited by Dansk viking; August 06, 2015 at 04:38 PM.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  11. #171
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Not really my area of expertise so I will leave the discussion to the more qualified but on the subject of the "House business", as you put it, that happens to be an integral part of the mods family trees, subfactions, rebellions, character abilities and ancillaries system.

    It exists under one description or another for every faction - we couldn't change it at this stage even if we wanted to.

  12. #172

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    I thought that might be the case, but would it not be possible to refrain from using actual "houses", that is "families", of well known Elvish characters/kings? - Any new named character could suddenly become a member of one of the royal lines which would be ridiculous (or descendant of someone who is unlikely to have any still in Middle-earth in the Fourth Age). Perhaps instead of describing the characters as members of the house per se, it could be changed to them being part of that "household" - but perhaps the descriptions could be read that way as well...
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  13. #173
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Yes, I know enough to know that this is easily possible, but, as I said not my area of expertise. Ill leave the discussion of what is lore appropriate to those more qualified.

  14. #174

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Correct me if I'm wrong (I didn't do the names lists), but I don't think it's possible to separate names by culture/subfaction/house/whatever. You can have male names and female names, but you can't have Sindarin names and so on. Or, rather, you *can*, but they won't naturally be granted to Sindarin characters; they'll be granted to any Elf.

    As for the houses, my feeling is that in the Fourth Age there would necessarily be some 'degradation' in Elven lineage and nobility. Being of the House of So-and-so probably means less in the Fourth Age than it did in the First, Second, or Third; it might be seen as merely an honorific, not really granting any serious claim to past glory.

    I think the naming of the faction - The Elven Realm, as opposed to the Elven Kingdom - is pretty apt in that regard. Even in the Third Age, there wasn't any hope that Gil-galad's kingdom would be reforged. You just had some scattered enclaves, and despite the fact that there were definitely mighty Elf-lords striding around there wasn't any initiative to unite them under one rule. The presentation of the Elves in the mod as a single faction is a concession to gameplay (since it wouldn't do to have different Elven factions fighting one another). But that single faction must be viewed as weaker in many ways than the scattered enclaves of the Third Age, given the absence of figures such as Galadriel, Elrond, and so on.

    So any Elf of a mighty house in our mod should probably be thought of as holding the memory of his past forebears, little more. The Elves in the Fourth Age are fading, growing weaker; perhaps some of this can also account for the spreading of 'foreign' names amongst the different kindreds.

    Dunno; the Elves really aren't my area of expertise. I do get your point about some of the more obvious names (Eol being one). I don't think we'd want to go so far as to completely ditch the known names. But it is tricky; if, as you say, Tolkien has said that no two Elves would bear the same name at the same time, well, we can't help but break that rule in the mod given the way names work. And the names in the mod are 'canonical' Elven names, and have some value in that sense.
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  15. #175

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Of course, I forgot that you could end up with having Noldorin Elves with Nandor names; in light of that, I think it would be best to simply only include Sindarin, constructed names - and of course those few names that belong to known characters starting in the campaign (Glorfindel, Thranduil, etc.).
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  16. #176

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    That is one possibility. But if we include Glorfindel & Thranduil, there's nothing to prevent those names from being assigned when another Elf gets born, adopted, or married.

    You do make some good points here. If I'm expressing hesitation, it's because I'm always concerned that making changes can have some unintended consequences. I was just reminded that the names list can be a source of CTDs, so while it may be an easy thing to change, there may be problems down the line. This may be something to look at later, when the other areas of the mod are finishing up.

    It seems that the Elf name-list maker may have been one of the earlier members of the team who is no longer around. Maybe Aradan will have some ideas.

    BTW, I hope Amleth is going well! And maybe someday my Old English will be good enough to decipher your signature...
    One of the most sophisticated Total War modders ever developed...

  17. #177

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Editing the names shouldn't cause any CTD's so long as no left over script, such as generating the strat map, tries spawning a character with those name removed. If Eöl is stricken from the list, gotta make sure he isn't included in you descr_strat.txt

    S'posse it's really just down to someone getting bored enough to make a new list.

    Also, closest thing to having no two elves with the same name: more names. There's always going to be a chance they for duplicates, but 1/100 is better than 1/25; particularly when new Elven FM's are few and long between.

  18. #178
    MasterOfNone's Avatar RTW Modder 2004-2015
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    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    If only modders had time to get bored

    Our Elven male name list is already around 100.

    There's no ideal way of doing this in the context of the hardcoded way the game uses names.
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  19. #179

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    The comment may have been aimed slightly more in Dansk's general direction for griping.

    It's agreed there's no ideal method here, but scale aside, adding more names seems the best way of avoiding doubles.

  20. #180

    Default Re: Feedback: Elves

    Well, I wouldn't be averse to making a name list if the team so wished. As a matter of fact, I might be the type who gets bored at times, I just recently made a new list including just below 2000 Old Norse and Old English names for my own mod - not so afraid of getting duplicates there.


    PS. It is quite right that changing the name lists can lead to some nasty CTDs (without error messages), and I can say I did my fair share of bug-hunting and finding small typos, etc. when doing my own. In the end I resorted to a near fool-proof method of remaking it (which I should have used from the beginning).
    Last edited by Dansk viking; August 12, 2015 at 04:23 AM.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

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