Feedback: Elves

[insolent1]

I agree that Glorfindel fit the cavalry unit better, this was merely under the presumption that the cavalry unit is unique but that noldor swords could be used as a recruitable bodyguard unit.

Ah, ok I think would prefer retainers instead as they are a better unit imo

is there a way to dissuade certain factions from attacking Elves/Dwarves even more?

Keeping a decent sized army in the settlement is the best approach and use the best troops available ie greenwood guards instead of greenwood bows, the AI is just looking at auto resolve strength so you don't even need a full stack.

[caspoi]

Shouldn't you replace the "sinda" trait with a teleri one? Because currently all the teleri are called sinda despite the fact that this is incorrect, all the sindar are teleri but not all teleri are sindar.

EDIT: And shouldn't the mithril armoury be avaivable in dwarven regions too and not just in Ost-In-Edil?

[CountMRVHS]

Dwarves benefit from mithril in Dwarrowdelf.

Someone else will have to explain the sindar/teleri thing. *Summoning Thangaror*....

[insolent1]

*Summoning Thangaror*....

[caspoi]

Dwarves benefit from mithril in Dwarrowdelf.

Someone else will have to explain the sindar/teleri thing. *Summoning Thangaror*....

I meant the development building for the elves.

The Teleri are one of the three main groups of the elves, the others being Noldor and Vanyar. It is also the most divided and while the ones in Aman and in the coasts (Lindon) retain their Teleri name one group (called the Nandor) stayed back during the road to Valinor at the foothills of the Misty Mountains. They later traveled to Beleriand and became known as the Laiquendi but that unimportant. Another group stayed behind when their king Elwë (later known as Thingol) became lost in the woods of Doriath and they became known as the Sindar, the grey elves, because while they never reached Aman themselves their queen let them glimpse some of it. Later, after the sacking of Doriath and the destruction of Beleriand the Sindar mingled with their Nandor kin and became their leaders. So there are actually three groups of Teleri in Middle-Earth, the "Teleri" who are high elves, the Sindar who are "grey elves" and the Nabdor who are dark elves.

[Thangaror]

I meant the development building for the elves.

The Teleri are one of the three main groups of the elves, the others being Noldor and Vanyar. It is also the most divided and while the ones in Aman and in the coasts (Lindon) retain their Teleri name one group (called the Nandor) stayed back during the road to Valinor at the foothills of the Misty Mountains. They later traveled to Beleriand and became known as the Laiquendi but that unimportant. Another group stayed behind when their king Elwë (later known as Thingol) became lost in the woods of Doriath and they became known as the Sindar, the grey elves, because while they never reached Aman themselves their queen let them glimpse some of it. Later, after the sacking of Doriath and the destruction of Beleriand the Sindar mingled with their Nandor kin and became their leaders. So there are actually three groups of Teleri in Middle-Earth, the "Teleri" who are high elves, the Sindar who are "grey elves" and the Nabdor who are dark elves.

I'm not quite sure what you're up to. Maybe because I'm not that familiar with Elven traits atm

First of all, there are no Telerin High-Elves in Middle-earth (if we disregard the version where Celeborn came with Galadriel from Aman).
There are only the Sindar and the Nandor. Only few of the Sindar mingled with the Nandor, most stayed in Lindon (where, maybe, they mingled with the Laiquendi who where Nandor. But there's no evidence on what the Laiquendi did after the FA).

IIRC there are three traits for the Elves "ethnicity": Noldo, Sinda, Nando.
So I don't see any reason why we'd need a Teler trait.

[caspoi]

The elves of the Falas were not considered Sindarin but simply as "Teleri" (although they were long under the overlordship of Doriath) and I was under the impression that the elves of Lindon consisted of the remnants of that group. I don't think it is outright stated that they are high elves but they are seafarers who could travel to and fro Aman and they share the same name with the ones on the shores of Valinor. I think it is a relatively safe assumpion that they have seen the two trees (although the elves of Middle-Earth were quite overwhelmed by the arrival of the noldor so I might be wrong.

[Thangaror]

No, the Teleri of the Falas were considered Sindar.
They were called the Falathrim and strictly speaking they are not part of the group who called themselves the Eglath, the Forsaken, who had been abandoned by their king Elwe, but both took Elwe as their High King and were considered Sindar.
And no ship ever crossed Belegaer and arrived in Aman until Earendil. AFAIK the Falathrim never dared, or even considered, sailing to Aman before the Enemy returned to Middle-earth. They tried after Nirnaeth Arnoediad, but most ships returned back to the havens if they did not get lost or sunk.

[Aikanár]

^Precisely.

[caspoi]

Ah, then I had missunderstood that (probably because they are not referanced as Sindar). I admit that the ship thing was merely presumptions to "clarify" it.

[Dáin II]

Stunning work for the elves as with the whole mod. Some people mentioned that the retainers don't die quickly enough. I don't agree. They do suffer a lot from arrows in the back in my games and also AP units can hurt them a lot.

What i would like to see changed is the economy. It is quite weak which in a way forces me to play rather unelvish (orkish) raiding pretty much everything Adunabar and Tharbad own in Eriador. After that was done i sent Glorfindel to destroy the Beornings and then sent him after Dale where he departed on the way to Grey Mountains hold. I would like to play a defensive campaign (only conquering Rivendell and the 3 fiefdoms), but this seems quite impossible moneywise even though i disband quite some troops in the beginning. I would find helpful if the development levels of Caras Galadhon and maybe also Rivendell could be slightly increased. It is horribly expensive to get them to population growth and i believe elves had enough centuries in Lorien to get somewhat closer to gardens of the silver light. Adding a resource in Langwyke would also be cool. Fish would be an option as everyone around has wood already and their neighbours on the opposite of the Anduin in Andlang manage to find some too.

[caspoi]

Would it be a good idea to give some requirements for the house and library of Elrond? For instance that you must build a loremasters hall before that. By the way what does the hoese and library of Elrond actually do?

Another thing is that could you please activate the possibility for regions to rebel if you play as a non-mannish faction?

[CountMRVHS]

WRT non-mannish factions not rebelling, it's not as simple as changing a line of code. The non-mannish factions' passive campaign map behavior (along with other things, such as the almost unbreakable alliances between Rohan-RK and Dwarves-Dale) is all part of the way they are set up, which is something that's not being considered at this point.

I'm not sure about adding more conditionals for Elrond's stuff. The idea is that the place is ruined at gamestart, and an Elven player can rebuilt it when Rivendell is recaptured, as if a lot of the lore/books had been preserved before the fall of the place to Adunabar. Can't remember what it does currently, but if you're feeling adventurous you could have a peek inside EDB.

[webba84]

In case Count wasn't clear about it, the no rebellions thing isn't there by choice, we cant have that for them without a whole bunch of other unwanted effects that are all hardcoded, the main one being that it would switch them to use the regular (homicidally agressive) ai, which means that they would expand all over the place and be more or less unbeatable all the time. Oh yes, and it would ruin the permanent alliances too.

So yeah, not happening.

[caspoi]

Is it not possible to switch it on and off depending on whether it is the player or ai that control the faction? If yes then the ai behavior would not be a problem and the unbreakable alliances relatively minor (I for one would have no problem with Dale backstabbing me as the dwarves during this age of men if it would mean a more balanced gameplay). If no then I suppose that there is nothing to do about it, I agree that an expansionist Shire would be a bit odd to see...

[CountMRVHS]

Nope, not possible.

[Dáin II]

Another thing is that could you please activate the possibility for regions to rebel if you play as a non-mannish faction?

I actually like the non-rebellion thing. Not only because it makes game play easier, but also because it seems quite logic. After all, who would dare to rebell after you killed 800 soldiers with 25 Elven Retainers or Durin's Guard?

[caspoi]

Everyone who just noticed that there are no elven retainers or Durin's guard in the settlement? I agree that if possible the garrison effect of elven and dwarven forces could be increased to represent that they are an elite but that does not mean that not a single one in the city would rebel when public order is zero and therefore the whole city is on the verge of rebellion. It is not logical at all. Why not add that every faction agrees to whatever you propose simply because they would not dare antagonize the elves or dwarves?

[CountMRVHS]

Because diplomatic effects were not a side-effect of the way those factions were set up; simple as that. As to the logic behind it, use whatever works. IMO it would be somewhat more lore-breaking to have Elven and Dwarven settlements rebelling frequently, since that seems to have been rather rare. (Well, to begin with, I can't think of any examples in the lore where Elves ruled settlements populated by Men... the closest I can think of might be the arrangements in the north of Beleriand in the First Age.)

[caspoi]

I was ironic, I wanted to say that you can not justify the fact that settlements never revolt with the quality of the elven units. I have not lost a single battle yet with my world conquering Adûnabâr armies and yet there are still riots every now and then. This is all academic anyway seeing as you can't cange it unless at the cost of things more important but it is still not logical.