Feedback: Elves

**webba84** · August 13, 2016, 05:10 AM

Cheers Wambat, will check it out.

**Wambat** · August 13, 2016, 07:35 PM

These are 3.1 saves, by the way.

**The Sloth** · September 26, 2016, 11:35 AM

I can confirm that Emyn-duir starts getting an additional 1.5% population growth out of nowhere, but it is certainly not because of the lore-master. I have no idea when or why, but it has so far happened in every elven campaign I have played. I'll pay more attention next time.

Also, why did Aradan decide to remove squalor from settlements? Now, all population growth is permanent, and by now my Greenwood cities are more populous than most of my mannish ones. Not that I mind being able to field full stacks of elves, but it does feel a bit... odd.

**webba84** · September 26, 2016, 08:09 PM

Its quite strange, I see it in the savegames, but it doesn't happen in my own campaign. I don't usually build anything in Emyn-duir though, so that might have something to do with it.

Squalor, IIRC, is a hardcoded mechanic, we can't remove or mod it in any way. It's just that with populations this low it doesn't really have an effect.

**Wambat** · September 27, 2016, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Sloth

Also, why did Aradan decide to remove squalor from settlements? Now, all population growth is permanent, and by now my Greenwood cities are more populous than most of my mannish ones. Not that I mind being able to field full stacks of elves, but it does feel a bit... odd.

You will not see much squalor due to the way settlements are set up in DOM. From the vanilla perspective, every settlement is at maximum development level, so, combined with the very low populations, you will not see squalor symbols except on some of the most populous settlements, like Lond Nurnen. Nevertheless, population growth does diminish as settlements gain population, reducing by .5% every 1500. So most Elven and Dwarven cities will cap out at 1500 to 3000 citizens; though they can still be stable with about 1500 more from disbanded units.

The settlements are set up this way so that each settlement did not have to reach 12000 citizens in order to become fully developed.

**Michael11** · October 03, 2016, 06:19 AM

Although I'm a newcomer to the Fourth Age, I would like to ask one question:some of the Elven settlements around Mithlond have 0% population growth. Would
it be possible to move the Elven population in there to another settlement,before converting them to Human,as that would make things a lot easier for newcomers
like me,as well as being somewhat logical,as they would want to all live around one area?

Also in a recent game I walked across the Reunited Kingdom on the way to Rivendell,taking out several sieges of their cities on the way,and
they seem to have declared war on me,which Rohan joined. I didn't think that crossing their lands would have such an impact,as I did help them
out along the way.

**CountMRVHS** · October 03, 2016, 06:48 AM

I've had the RK attack me outright while marching across their territory, playing as the Elves. Other times the alliance has held. I'm not sure what triggers a betrayal, but sometimes it happens, so you always have to take care while 'trespassing' (even if you have military access).

I'm not sure about your first question. You can't move the entire population of one settlement to another, but you could train several units (such as ships) in those settlements and then disband them in Mithlond, if that's what you mean.

**Wambat** · October 03, 2016, 10:30 PM

The first thing I do in my Elven campaigns is queue up units to remove the populations from any settlement with very few Elves. Harlond and Forlond, for example, can each queue up exactly two ships (to disband at Mithlond) and two emissaries (which are a good investment) each. You can then move the FMs out of those settlements and crank up the taxes to highest; netting you around 1000 extra income/turn and two more FMs to throw at Adunabar.

**Richard The Impaler** · October 03, 2016, 10:50 PM

Would either of those family members be able to develop Ost-in-Edhil?

**webba84** · October 04, 2016, 12:53 AM

Depends, traits are semi-randomly generated at game start. I don't think I've seen an OiE capable FM on the first turn yet, but I believe it is possible.

**Wambat** · October 04, 2016, 10:48 PM

It is a good idea not to commit all of your generals to lordships for this very reason. You may need to switch out a lordship when you find your Ost-in-Edhil governor. You will not be able to do this if all your generals already have lordships.

**Michael11** · October 06, 2016, 06:49 PM

[QUOTE=CountMRVHS;15134376]I've had the RK attack me outright while marching across their territory, playing as the Elves. Other times the alliance has held. I'm not sure what triggers a betrayal, but sometimes it happens, so you always have to take care while 'trespassing' (even if you have military access).

If that's the case,is there a way to see exactly how big "trespassing" incurs on relationships? As I drove off a fairly big army that was actively sieging one of their cities and did
what I thought was severe damage to the Cultists,surely that should off-set any trespassing penalty,or doesn't the diplo system work that way?

**Wambat** · October 06, 2016, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Michael11

If that's the case,is there a way to see exactly how big "trespassing" incurs on relationships? As I drove off a fairly big army that was actively sieging one of their cities and did
what I thought was severe damage to the Cultists,surely that should off-set any trespassing penalty,or doesn't the diplo system work that way?

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. RTW does not give good information from which to draw quantifiable conclusions. It is speculated that the diplomacy engine of ME2 was largely copy/pasted from RTW, and ME2 does give a graphical representation of relations that could allow you to deduce what actions have effects and to what extent.

My experience with diplomacy in RTW (I don't have ME2) is that the AI takes a binary attitude to most activities. It might care if you attack it's enemy, but not how well you do in the battle, or how much you hurt the enemy; it will care, if it does, just as much regardless of the particulars.

I have not really had any experiences that would suggest my attacking the enemy of an AI faction, regardless if ally or no, would have a positive or negative effect on relations. What the AI seems to care about is whether or not you are on it's territory, whether or not you have permission to be on it's territory, and whether or not it sees your units on it's territory as threatening.

The way I have read the AI behavior is a faction may feel very powerful, in that it has a large strength rating (I believe they include, in some way, the strength of allies) compared to the strength rating of factions currently at war with the faction. So, a weak faction, or a faction with lots of wars (and few allies), will be less likely to pick fights with units crossing their territory. I think the Elves are vulnerable in this formula because their low population and poor economy means they will often have a "technically" weak strength rating at the beginning of a campaign, but the very high strength rating of their individual units means a small Elven stack crossing another faction's territory may be seen as a great threat. Moreover, the Elves do not start with many allies, and the RK (Elves's only starting ally) is not likely to view itself as a deterrent to attacking the Elves.

**Michael11** · October 07, 2016, 08:12 AM

Is there a way,then to reset the AI diplo to what it was,if they decide to be stupid? I know that there's a tool in game,but I've used it,and it cost me something like 8k
which didn't make much difference,as they promptly declared war on me again the next turn. I know it's a Total War game,but being at war with
4 different factions when there's no other way to get past them,as the Shire has the same problem seems somewhat ridiculous.

**Wambat** · October 07, 2016, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Michael11

Is there a way,then to reset the AI diplo to what it was,if they decide to be stupid? I know that there's a tool in game,but I've used it,and it cost me something like 8k
which didn't make much difference,as they promptly declared war on me again the next turn. I know it's a Total War game,but being at war with
4 different factions when there's no other way to get past them,as the Shire has the same problem seems somewhat ridiculous.

If you check out the Campaign Reports you will see that I encountered a great deal of resistance in my own Elven campaign; and I have taken a particular interest in RTW's diplomacy system for many years. To some extent, there will not be too much you can do about aggressive AI. The Elves are spread out, and many of their territories are very exposed. If you purchase military access from your allies (you do not start out with military access with the Shire) they will be less likely to attack your troops crossing their land, but this is never a guarantee.

In an Elven campaign you do have options in Eriador. You can send your troops south of the shire through Sarnford. You can send your troop north through Tirn-fervain (you will want to purchase military access from the Dwarves in that case. Or, you can wait for Adunabar to take Anuminas. You can also take on all comers; the Elves are monsters on the field if used well.

If you feel like starting over to give a different approach a try, I would encourage you to do so; but also do not be discouraged by your current circumstance. Once you get a good feel for proper Elven tactics, no declaration of war should frighten you.

Also, if you want to be able to use forced diplomacy freely, at no cost, you have merely to use the add_money command line to make up for the cost of the forced diplomacy. If you have not done so yet, take a look at the diplomacy guide on this forum.

**Michael11** · October 10, 2016, 12:04 AM

I have one additional small request. I understand from the "Dying Light: A Guide to the Elven Realm guide"that the Noldor swords are re-trainable with Elrond's library and the "correct infrastructure buildings". However Elrond's Library doesn't display that information,which I see as kind of important ,as it's not a cheap building. Would it be possible to put a small note on Elrond's Library to make that information more accessible,in-game,or if my information is incorrect,maybe update the guide to reflect that fact?

**CountMRVHS** · October 10, 2016, 07:01 AM

By correct infrastructure, I think it means a Lord's Barracks or some level of MD. Do the Noldor Swords show up as being trainable at any of the barracks? But yeah, it's a good idea to add a note there like you say. I'll add that to the list

**The Sloth** · October 11, 2016, 01:11 AM

Oh, before I forget: I have encountered a bug in my elven campaign.

I have an army in Framsburg. Upon ending my turn, all elven archers, riders and Lindon guards receive a +3 weapon upgrade out of nowhere. My family member does not, nor do my mannish units or elven units in other settlements.

Also, I have not encountered the Emyn Duir population bug in this recent campaign.

**Wambat** · October 11, 2016, 10:51 PM

Would you be able to post saved gave files from the campaign where the Emyn Duir bug shows up, and from your current game, so that we might compare the differences?

As for the weapon bonuses: It is normal that FMs would not receive weapon bonus; that is a vanilla thing we can not fix. But, could you give us a list of the buildings at Framsburg?

I personally have noticed some interesting upgrade nuances. The garrison units you get when acquiring a province diplomatically seem to be able to be upgraded in experience in some settlements, and not in others. In particular, I can upgrade them all the way to lvl6 at one of my northern forts, but cannot upgrade their experience at all at my Dwarven settlements.

**The Sloth** · October 12, 2016, 06:28 AM

All right.

1) I have already overwritten the savegames with the Emyn Duir bug, sorry about that.

2) FMs' weapons could be upgraded in vanilla just fine, couldn't they?

3) Here is the savegame involving the weapon upgrages in Framsburg. You will notice the following things:
- The upgrade will happen as soon as you end your turn.
- I now even know what caused it: The advanced tanneries and woolmakers. The AI automatically retrains my elven units to give them that armor bonus, and they magically get the weapon bonus on top of it.
- This confirms another bug that I have seen posted elsewhere, about the AI retraining units even when automated recruiting is turned off. If you switch Framsburg to manual governance, the weapon and armor upgrade does not occur. But it does when you do the upgrade manually.