Feedback: Khand

[Wambat]

They were first in small stacks, then I had to stop that when the AI started sending bigger stacks.

Have you considered sending a force of three or four Outriders behind enemy lines to sack Harad's cities; destroying their cultural buildings, military buildings and Homeland/Fiefdom/Outland buildings? You can leave them un-garrisoned and they will revolt to Independent. Or even if they are taken back my Harad before they revolt it will take some time for them to be able to produce troops in that settlement again. This should help to stop Harad sending full stacks at you every turn, and you might have better luck getting a peace treaty with them when you no longer share a border.

[webba84]

Given how hard it can be to hold on to captured settlements in FATW slash and burn is a very effective tactic. You don't get the settlement but neither does your enemy, you get a bunch of cash, and it will take a while before the settlement is useful to anyone again. (And the AI will be paying to redevelop it)

[Hopit]

Have you considered sending a force of three or four Outriders behind enemy lines to sack Harad's cities; destroying their cultural buildings, military buildings and Homeland/Fiefdom/Outland buildings? You can leave them un-garrisoned and they will revolt to Independent. Or even if they are taken back my Harad before they revolt it will take some time for them to be able to produce troops in that settlement again. This should help to stop Harad sending full stacks at you every turn, and you might have better luck getting a peace treaty with them when you no longer share a border.

Considering all their cities have walls, it's rather pointless to try.
What playing Khand so far has taught me:
Harad ignores RK and Harondor.
Swordmen of Harad's javelins are insane. It feels like someone gave them .50 cal semi-auto sniper rifles. I swear I've lost more nobles and soldiers in general to their javelins than any other unit in this mod so far.
Also that Dragonshields (apart from mercs) and horse archers of khand are waste of money.
Either: Outriders are way too great for their cost, or everything else they have is just bad.

[insolent1]

Considering all their cities have walls, it's rather pointless to try.
What playing Khand so far has taught me:
Harad ignores RK and Harondor.
Swordmen of Harad's javelins are insane

Harad always goes after Horondor in my games but it might be because the player is a neighbour.
The real problem with javelin infantry is they get stuck in the throwing attack instead of melee and this typically causes the attacker more casulties aswell as it can absorb a charge much better.
Its a RTW bug and was there in TNS.

[Hopit]

Harad always goes after Horondor in my games but it might be because the player is a neighbour.
The real problem with javelin infantry is they get stuck in the throwing attack instead of melee and this typically causes the attacker more casulties aswell as it can absorb a charge much better.
Its a RTW bug and was there in TNS.

It also doesn't help that the bloody javelins are AP. (And thanks for them to get "stuck" in their animation, their range can be rather long)

And Harad only took the closest province from Harondor (and none from Far Harad, even tough they were constantly at war with both of them) by FA 400.
Then I snapped and killed Harad, Far Harad and Rhun with cheats and watched the world turn into this beautiful rebel paradise. Then I got attacked by Adunabar, who was ignoring RK completely to go after me

I had forgotten RTW AI treats backstabbing allies like it's some high quality heroin... neutral nations are less likely to attack you, funnily enough (What, in my close to 10 years of playing this game)

[caspoi]

After my force diplomacy finally worked for me I have noted one problem with Khand's horde: all units lack any experience. Is this intentional, an oversight or something you can not anything about?

[webba84]

Hmm, that could well be an oversight. All units should have at least 3xp.

[MasterOfNone]

Horde units have xp-related stats at 3 higher value than normal units iirc - thus are the same as recruited units even though they lack the starting xp. I can't remember why it was done this way, possibly horde spawning cannot generate xp, thus the distinction.

[caspoi]

Horde units have xp-related stats at 3 higher value than normal units iirc - thus are the same as recruited units even though they lack the starting xp. I can't remember why it was done this way, possibly horde spawning cannot generate xp, thus the distinction.

I see, I didn't check the unit stats. Thank you.

[caspoi]

I wonder if you could give Khand an Alliance with Far Harad and Harandor simply to lower the chance of them attacking Far Harad when under the control of the ai? They don't realise the threat that Harad poses and while they generally beat Far Harad, often making them their vassals, by that time Harad has grown too powerful to be stopped. If the ai had an alliance of conveniance (to stop the growing empire) they are more likely to make an united (and possible sucessfull) effort to stop Harad, something that is in everyone's best interest. Harad might still win but it will be harder and take longer then. Right now Harad immediatly crushes Far Harad and Harandor at the same time, conquer Khand soon thereafter and then march up through Ithilien, conquering everything in its wake.

[Stark1]

Great idea. But does AI really care about alliances?

[CountMRVHS]

My observations have been that the AI generally doesn't betray alliances with other AI factions. So a setup like that might work for a while - or as long as the factions involved didn't get into other alliances which forced them to drop their alliances with each other, at which point all bets are off.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea. Khand is currently set up as a strong ally of Rhun, which I wouldn't want to mess with. We have a certain amount of backstory implied in the mod already, so forcing (or nudging) the player in other preset directions might be too much.

I also don't see Harad crushing Far Harad 'immediately'. Harondor tends to die off within the first 10 turns (though it will sometimes last longer and conquer south of the Harnen). Far Harad often outlasts it considerably. In my current campaign as Rhun, it's 395 and Harad has only just gone to war with Far Harad, some 60 turns into the game. I also have seen Khand and Far Harad take provinces from Harad.

[caspoi]

"Immediatly" is a bit of a strong word, in my usual playthrough Harad conquers South Harandor and Far Harad Borderlands in the first few turns (it may take until Harad goes to war against Far Harad though which may slow it down a bit). Some time after that they conquer Another half of Harandor and Far Harad West. A short while after they have conquered both Harandor and Far Harad and turn their focus on Khand, which of course does not stand a chance in defeating them.

I did not imagine that the alliance between Khand and Rhûn was meant to be that strong. I rather imagined that either one would leap at the other at a sign of weakness and anyway it is hardly as if Rhûn and Far Harad are likely to go to war against each other as long as Khand still lives. The alliance with Far Harad is one that I rather imagine as an alliance of conveniance because of the rise of The Empire of Harad and as the saying goes "an enemy of my enemy is my friend". They would probably turn against each other as soon as Harad is out of the way.

[fvsinr7k]

Fun faction, I was never a big horse archer fan untill I played these guys, I started out trying to make mixed armies and quickly learned to make roming hordes of outriders instead.

Rhun has left me alone but far harad attacked me almost right away, as soon as we shared a boarader pretty much, same as harad, it's funny becuase harad has been on me horondor is still alive and kicking so far seems liek they haven't lost a single settlement to RK even. I've got a decent econoemy going and enough armies to hold of both harads and make some gains (just took far harads large south eastern city) but those mumalki are rediculus, I can't find a good awnser for them, they're described as being afraid of masseed arrows but sending a few or more units of outriders at them never ends well, the only "bonus against large creatures" I've seen so far is from mercenary skirmishers, it seems like soem heigher tier foot unit shoudl have a large creature bonus.

Would incindiary pigs be too outside of lore?

I'm also a little currious how far harad keeps producing full stacks with only 3 .... now 2 settlements. campiegn dificulty is decidedly tookish.

Another thing, this may be a mounted skirmisher wide thing but sometimes they kind of bug out and won't move to fast to attack a further off unit while they're currently attacking something near by, this is usualy in a route situation. I don't think it's a skirmish setting issue.

[athanaric]

Rhun has left me alone but far harad attacked me almost right away, as soon as we shared a boarader pretty much, same as harad, it's funny becuase harad has been on me horondor is still alive and kicking so far seems liek they haven't lost a single settlement to RK even. I've got a decent econoemy going and enough armies to hold of both harads and make some gains (just took far harads large south eastern city) but those mumalki are rediculus, I can't find a good awnser for them, they're described as being afraid of masseed arrows but sending a few or more units of outriders at them never ends well, the only "bonus against large creatures" I've seen so far is from mercenary skirmishers, it seems like soem heigher tier foot unit shoudl have a large creature bonus.

Charge them with lancers (Variag Riders, Dragonshield riders). It's stupid, but it works. Lancers in this mod (so far, at least) have very high bonuses against cavalry and animals. Don't try this with your general BG units, though. Elephants have an awful habit of crashing on top of your generals when they die.
Levy skirmishers and Variag Warriors might also work. And those Swerting mercs are very practical in general.

Would incindiary pigs be too outside of lore?

Well, they were too rare to make it into the realism mods, so...

[fvsinr7k]

It would make sense if flaming arrows helped to route elephants, never tried it.

[athanaric]

It would make sense if flaming arrows helped to route elephants, never tried it.

Theoretically it works, but only a few factions get them (RK, Adunabar, Harad, Harondor, Dale, Tharbad). Your best bet is ballistas and catapults, if you can get them. Incidentally, they're restricted to those same factions.

[CountMRVHS]

Swerting Skirmisher types are my usual Mumakil-killers. Cheap and effective, and the mercs are there to die anyway. Outriders can't outrun Mumakil - rather horrifying to watch your fast HAs, who have ridden circles around entire armies, get smashed by those monsters!

[fvsinr7k]

I was a bit shocked how fast them mumakil were, is that intentional? I know the movies show them running down the rohan cav but that's about the only time I've ever heard of an elephant out running a horse.

[FUBAR-]

It's to do with scaling up the model, or maybe there's a direct line for it somewhere, likely in the skeletons; IIRC, the DMB file mentions that Mumakil are African elephants x4.

On the open battlefield you just gotta hope like hell you can kill them before they make contact, as you'll find that any skirmisher units that get hit quickly lose the man power to take the monster down. Safety in numbers...

In siege battles they're an easier target, if the AI is trying to knock a wall down with 'em, as they'll usually spend about five minutes staring at your palisade, before turning it to match sticks. Looking back.. they might not've started bashing the walls until their friendly ram opened the gate... well, damn, now I gotta play another doomed Far Harad campaign to check that.