Feedback: Beornings

[MasterOfNone]

Please post feedback on this faction in this thread. Report things you like as well as things you feel could be improved. Don't be shy. We want to know about everything: visuals, audio, text, lore, models, game play, features, mechanics, unit balance, campaign balance, look and feel, atmosphere, stability, quality, etc.

We are chiefly attending to battlemap settlement models in the run up to the full release, but we can tweak other elements in that period according to feedback we receive in the open-beta stage.

Bugs/CTDs should be reported in the bugs thread, not here.

[Galgus]

Woodmen Axes feel a little too useless - I saw two of them rout against a single Woodman Calvary unit.

They seem to have incredibly low morale and lose badly to just about anything in melee combat - even in victory their losses are staggering.

[Galgus]

For a second post, Elven Retainers seem practically invulnerable to a Beorning army.

I had six Archers unload quivers at them with no results - even when flanking.

Does arrow resistance not care about multiple angles of attack?

[webba84]

Woodmen Axes are a first tier milita unit, if they were any good it would be weird.

Elven Retainer armour is rather high, yes. We are looking at lowering it slightly.

[Galgus]

It just feels like its never worth using them when Spears are available so soon at the same train time, and seem marginally better.

I find myself trying to rely on bowman while the flimsy infantry hopefully holds the line.

Is there anything to look forward to in higher Beorning tiers?
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Nice to hear on the Retainers.

[webba84]

Yes, the Beorning Axemen and War-dogs are very good, as are the bodyguards of course.

The Beornings are a minor faction with very limited resources - they are set up this way for people who enjoy a challenge, and trying to make do with inferior units. If you want a large variety of well equipped units then you will probably not find playing as them very fun.

[Galgus]

The bodyguards actually seem to die quite quickly with their low unit sizes - I've become wary of actually sending them to fight.

I'm not really expecting a strong faction, but I'm hoping for at least one unit that is up to par or perhaps slightly above it.

Admittedly I'm probably spoiled by the Dwarves, who do one thing absurdly, absurdly well.

[webba84]

Indeed, the only faction that has units as strong as the Dwarves is the Elves. Beorning units arent that far behind other mannish ones of similar tiers, and their elites are better than many, but one for one they are generally going to be outclassed by those of richer, more advanced factions.

[Galgus]

I'll look forward to the elites, then.

I'm just hoping that I can turn this small woodsmen faction into a real power with some luck.

[webba84]

We do have some plans for strengthening the roster of minor factions that have some success against a major neighbour, but thats not finished yet.

[CountMRVHS]

Funny you should mention the Spears, Galgus, I've had the opposite experience. Given the option of training Axes or Spears as the Beornings, I almost always go with the Axes. The Spears' defense is a few points higher, but their unit size is smaller, and their anti-cav bonus doesn't seem too effective against Dale's riders.

The Beornings' strengths are fear and AP units, so I build my armies with that in mind. I like at least 4 units of Bows in any stack, led by a Beorning Guard family member, with ideally 2 units of Beorning Axemen, 2 units of War-dogs, 2 or 3 Woodmen Riders, and the rest Axemen or Mercenary Axemen. (In Dale regions you'll also want to look for Mercenary Bowmen of Dale)

If the enemy has archers, shoot those up first, then let your Bows choose their own targets. When the lines are close to contact, rush your Axe infantry forward to screen your Bows and lock down any charging enemy units. Loose the War-dogs at under-strength or weak units, and follow up with reserve infantry or cav. (If you need to, send in the War-dog handlers as well; they've got 2-handed axes too.)

In the early stages of melee, your cav can potentially deal with other cav, such as Dale Mounted Watch (preferably outnumber them), or weak archer units. Meanwhile, your Beorning Axemen flank and go after armored enemies. Your Beorning Guard is *excellent* - great at taking down Dragon-slayers, provided the latter are already stuck in melee. Basically, send these guys after the general.

In a pinch, your Bows are also armed with axes and make decent melee fighters. Throw them into the scrum if there's nothing left to shoot and you think you need the extra help.

Against AI armies (which are often not led by a general), the combination of missile fire, war dogs, scary dudes with big axes and GIANT scary dudes with big axes who just hacked their leader in two will often cause a nice rout.

Really, all you need your infantry for is holding long enough for you to bring those things into play. I've had great success so far, though admittedly I have left the Elves alone (been busy fighting Dale - but why would you want to open up that can of worms anyway? )

[caspoi]

Their armour penetration is indeed one of their greatest strengths, making them better suited at fighting enemis who value quality over quantity than the opposite.

[Galgus]

I thought I saw a single group of woodsmen spearmen fair fairly well against my woodsmen axemen, but I may need to look into it much.

Isn't it better to have some anti-calvary than fighting without?

I always try to use bowmen, but what are AP units? By fear as a strength, do you mean the dogs or is there more to it?

The Elves attacked me when I didn't know that crossing their territory was such a provocation or that there was a path that made it unnecessary.

It seems like Dale has a horrible habit of letting their archers get caught in melee, which has made some battles easier.

[caspoi]

AP stands for armour penetration.

[CountMRVHS]

Ideally you'd want your anti-cav units to be stronger than the Woodmen Spears variety - I've seen them just wither before a charge of Dale Mounted Watch. Every battle is different of course, so they could be more effective in this role than I've given them credit for, but my impression is that making a line of Woodmen Spears and expecting them to hold off serious cavalry is a mistake. They probably fare better against lighter cavalry, or attacking cavalry when they're not themselves the target of a cav charge.

Really, though, as the Beornings it's unlikely you'll see too much cav in your enemies' armies, at least in the early years. Dale will toss in the Dale Mtd Watch - usually a couple per army. Nothing your archers and other troops can't handle.

As for fear, the Beornings have 3 fear-causing units: the War-dogs and the Beorning Axemen (both at tier 3 Military Development, Hosting Halls), and the Beorning Guard bodyguard unit. If you're playing with a general in all your battles, you'll have at least one of those, and you should make Hosting Halls a priority in Oldford to get easy access to the other 2.

[athanaric]

[...] (If you need to, send in the War-dog handlers as well; they've got 2-handed axes too.)
[...] In a pinch, your Bows are also armed with axes and make decent melee fighters. [...]

Wait, so literally your entire army is armed with axes?

[CountMRVHS]

Apart from the Woodmen Spears, the only non-axe-armed soldier in a Beorning army is the captain (the leader when your army isn't led by a FM).

[Galgus]

Since war with Dale seems highly relevant to the Beornings, Bardic Longbowmen feel a bit absurdly effective in melee for archers.

I've taken heavy losses with calvary and lost silly numbers of infantry in melee with them - where they would theoretically be easy pickings.

[CountMRVHS]

Hmm, I haven't had too much trouble with them myself. Some things I do:


-defend when possible. The Beornings' susceptibility to arrow fire means you don't want to be attacking an entrenched defender who can get off volley after volley
-target Dale's archers with my own
-don't get in 1-vs-1 fights. In other words, I don't send 1 unit of Woodmen Riders after 1 unit of Barding Longbowmen; I aim for 2-vs-1 fights instead, kill 1 unit of Longbows with my 2 cav, then move those 2 cav to the next single unit of longbows, etc.
-send in the dogs. War-dogs will at least prevent the Longbows from firing volleys, and give you time to send a unit of Axes (or two) after the Longbows - all the while causing fear
-win the battle elsewhere. Kill the general, kill all their infantry; then rush the remaining archers with your victorious forces.

[Galgus]

Honestly I may have spoken prematurely there with too little experience, but the scenario was low-level infantry against Bardic Longbomen in melee combat.
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I've taken to cycling Woodmen Riders in their charges - having one charge another charge behind them so that one can instantly retreat after the charge before the other impacts.

It seems quite effective against the Longbowmen and any weak spots.

Other than that the general tactic has become an even mix of Beorning Axemen and War Dogs hoping to route enemy Infantry with some limited archer support. I'm not sure how to fight calvary-heavy armies with the Beornings, but I can cross that bridge when I get there.

Will fear tactics cease to be effective against higher-level infantry, or will they just take longer?
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Anyway, all and all I've had some of the most intense battles in my short Rome: Total War experience with the Beornings.