What is the best meathod to growth?

[FriendoftheDork]

Like I said above in this threat - I myself have slightly modded the game and there is no ";" in my files before architect and builder. So they should give -3 to squalor.

Aha, that explains things. Although it is strange that you need 3 or more squalor reduction to have any noticeable effect on growth.

[Withwnar]

Perhaps my opening wording was wrong - "It's referring to how much the settlement's squalor affects the settlement's growth" - but everything that followed it in my post still seems right to me.

pip_modifier is just that: a modifier, a multiplication factor. Whether its modifying the squalor value of the settlement, or modifying the squalor-to-growth% calculation, is academic: it amounts to the same result. i.e. In this formula...

growth rate impact from squalor = squalor x (-0.5) x (population / 1500) x pip_modifier

...it doesn't matter where the "x pip_modifier" is placed, which thing it is multiplying; the answer comes out the same. (Unless it was multiplying the 1500 of course.)

I'm assuming what you put into "code" was simply your assumptions, not found anywhere in the files.

It is based on the comment in the file: "1.0 is -0.5% per population of 1500". And yes, that was an assumption because I can only assume that this comment is correct. I have not seen squalor calculations explained anywhere else. This comment is not present in any vanilla Kingdoms files. So it must have been King Kong (or other team member) who put it there - whether it's something they know to be true or just a best guess I can't say.

They way I see it SPF_SQUALOR is simply the amount of squalor the settlement gets depending on it's population size.
...
I assume this is simply triggers, for each 1500 population, squalor affects pop growth by another 0.5%.

It can't be simply a function of population size because that would not explain the squalor drop when walls are upgraded: the population hasn't changed* yet the squalor has.

* Okay, it will change a little during that turn end in which the walls were completed, but squalor goes down a lot.

It would also mean that the Squalor trait/anc effect does nothing, ever.

I believe that "squalor" (in that formula) is:

[some calculation based on population size] - [some calculation based on wall size] + [sum of Squalor effects from traits/ancs]

...where "some calculation" means hardcoded and the formula unknown to us. (Maybe someone knows what they are.)

And the resulting value of that "squalor" is limited to the 0..10 range (in TATW) by SPF_SQUALOR's pip_min and pip_max values.

That all seems logical to me. But, again, I'm not claiming that I'm right.

EDIT: on reflection, I believe that my initial wording was correct: "It's referring to how much the settlement's squalor affects the settlement's growth". A "pip" is the icon on the scroll, where 1 pip represents 0.5%. So a pip_modifier is modifying the final calculation (displayed result), not some internal factor in the calculation.

An therefore a correction: pip_min and pip_max would mean the allowed range of the resulting "growth rate impact from squalor", not the range of the "squalor" value. Not sure if that means that there is a maximum of 10 pips (5%) or a maximum of 10%. I think it's the former.

[FriendoftheDork]

Yes Withwnar, I conceded you may have been right about this in a previous post. I still don't understand why having squalor -1 or -2 does nothing, while having -3 actually changes the growth rate.

[Withwnar]

Not sure. Maybe it's due to rounding or something? Or maybe the wall size impact is not just an added amount, but some multiplication factor of [population + trait/anc Squalor].

What I did find is that a settlement with massive squalor due to massive population (too high for the settlement level) did cap at 5%, and a -2 or -3 Squalor from a trait had no effect. But when I reduced the population so that there was 4% squalor (I think) and tried the -2 trait again then it did have an effect (I don't think I tried the -3 that time).

-1 Squalor --> subtracts 0.25% from squalor%. As these scroll stats only display in increments of 0.5% it is understandable that a 0.25% change might not be a visible change.

This might be of interest: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...v-minor-update
I forgot all about it. It makes my earlier comment that no TATW traits have Squalor even more bizarre.

I forgot about this too: castles have different rates than cities. A Squalor trait/anc effect has less impact in a castle. That's what the...

<castle_modifier value="0.75"/>

...means in the mechanics file. And it is NOT commented out by the way, despite the ";;;" in front of it.

[FriendoftheDork]

Very interesting Withwnar, thanks for the discussion, I have learned some things about squalor now, although some details might still be vague. And I did think that the castle modifier was commented out.

[Withwnar]

It looks like it was trying to be commented out. Being an xml file, commented out would look like this:

<!-- <castle_modifier value="0.75"/> -->

[Chulain519]

cause i feel like it takes sooo long to grow settlements, and most ai settlements grow way faster than mine, am i doing something? is there a general rule of thumb?

To give in game answer (non-technical). First to declare I play MOS 1.62 with Reunited Kingdom (which I highly recommend), so perhaps some changes in this are different to vanilla TATW 3.2:
1. Always maintain taxes at Low, apart from when completing building, then should be High or Very High to maximize positive traits
2. Train governors by having them in town when completing building (as above) - I often defer building something until I have a governor free to complete and rotate single governor around local towns
3. Transfer ancillaries to maximize key governors (e.g. with Eriador, Aragorn gets Chancellor, which I transfer to Gandalf to decrease build cost and squalor)
4. Build farms, sheep farming, town halls et al to boost growth and reduce squalor
5. Don't expect miracles - in mountains growth rate will never be high, nor in castles with limited buildings, etc.

-squalor reduces the negative impact of squalor and doesn't increase growth, so if max growth is only 1% based on location, farms, etc. having -6 squalor governor, will still only be 1%

Remember growth is compounding, so over time, it will fix itself. On MOS, my one critique is it uses monthly turns, so after 10 years, Annuminas is now 50,000 city, which I think is too fast growth.
Live long and prosper

With proper training, on turn 90, I now have about 6 governors with -4 or better squalor. When I take new city, I move one of these in to pacify region and ensure positive growth

Good luck...

[manekemaan]

Don't forget about brothels! Their higher tier buildings also provide a growth bonus.

[Lothar135]

I dont recommend to build brothels. If you want growth, you will need a good growth governor. However, with a brothel in city, its governor will likely obtain bad traits (alcoholic and others...)

[Chulain519]

I dont recommend to build brothels. If you want growth, you will need a good growth governor. However, with a brothel in city, its governor will likely obtain bad traits (alcoholic and others...)

Are you talking personal experience that these are bad traits or just in game

I didn't know brothels had growth bonus as also avoid building due to traits. I guess makes sense as produce more offspring and increase happiness!?

[DrDragun]

In TATW only the level 3 brothel gives 0.5% growth iirc and only for certain factions (under settlement details it will say 'buildings of leaisure') or something with the growth icons.

So it doesn't help you where needed most... growing villages to their first wall. But it can help you with speeding up midsize settlements to build Barracks 4 elite units. I don't remember if it works for the "big 2" growth projects Osgiliath and Annuminas. You will certainly trash your governor with alcoholic traits if you do so, but it could be worth it in some strategies.

[Qba]

I've explained the population growth issue in this thread, check it out: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ase-pop-growth

[FriendoftheDork]

If only there was a building we could introduce that only works in towns and pre-walled castles. I can understand that you want to avoid having Druidan forest become a large city, but having tons of useless small town that can't be defended without walls everywhere is getting a bit ridiculous. As Mordor East Osgilliath is down to a few hundred, and will take eons to grow to anything decent. And population and thus taxes is the most important factor for income in M2TW, so having a decent population is necessary to have armies.

[FriendoftheDork]

I've explained the population growth issue in this thread, check it out: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ase-pop-growth

That's essentially the same discussion we've had here yes. Maybe a moderator can update the FAQ with some basic information about how growth is curtailed in this mod? I beleve these are changes done to balance the game, but not everyone may agree with them, as since the ingame information is not updated (which would be a lot of work), people are making decisions based on wrong information and getting frustrated when it does not work.

On another note, I have already "fixed" the ancillaries growth wise, without noticing any population boom, so I think nerfing these was over the top. Having Chivalry give 2-3% extra pop growth might be over the top though, especally considering many good factions start with very high chivalry generals. I am loath to change this since I don't want every AI city becoming huge in just 50 turns.