Deleted animations in DEI - any solutions being investigated?

**jukebox9** · December 31, 2014, 01:06 PM

I've been playing the new DEI release a little the last couple of days and I noticed that several animations were missing (square, shield wall, hoplite phalanx, I think; may be more that I haven't discovered). I've always enjoyed the additional immersion these animations add to the game. So I did a little digging on why they were removed.

Long story short, looks like DEI team deleted them because they creatively re-purposed some existing in-game abilities into new formations and post-patch-14, these changes conflicted with CA's updates - leading to an infinite-charge bug during combat. Dresden's post can explain this much better to those that are unfamiliar with this issue:

This is a bug in DeI and not in vanilla. In that regard, I understand that it isn't necessarily something you guys can or should fix. Our team is also contacting CA about the issue in hopes of fixing it or getting suggestions on it (rather than posting it as a vanilla bug). I will explain it anyway

In Divide et Impera, we have changed killing spree and headhunt from abilities used in combat to be formations for our hoplites and other units. In this manner, the AI would use the formations in combat (whereas with other formations in vanilla other than pikes, they don't). We did this to "trick" the AI into using abilities it normally uses in combat so that we could have hoplites in formation fighting one another. To accomplish this, we changed killing spree's and headhunt's assume_specific_behavior setting in the unit_special_abilities table to be "shield_wall_formation." We also, of course, set the various special ability phase effects to change these abilities into formations instead.

This all worked very well until Patch 14, when a strange bug was introduced into this system. Rather than assuming the formation and engaging the enemy normally, the AI would at first assume the formation and engage. Then, it leaves the formation and goes into a charge animation. After that, it assumes the formation again. Then, another charge animation. This repeats throughout the battle. This both looks bad in battle but also causes them to repeatedly get a charge bonus over and over. So, for whatever reason, the AI using killing spree with the shield wall formation behavior caused an infinite charge loop in patch 14.

We got around this for now by removing the behavior (and losing the formation animations but keeping the effects of it). We tried using pike phalanx instead, but of course they are set to be a very slow moving and different type of formation from a hoplite phalanx (they can't charge or engage swiftly, for example). If we create a custom hoplite phalanx, the AI won't use it in combat. I am not sure this is something fixable (as it may be related to the battle AI changes in patch 14) but we were hoping to be able to once again assign the shield wall behavior to abilities the AI will use in combat.

Since I'm still familiarizing myself with DEI, can experienced DEI players or the modders tell me what are some of the new "formations" that DEI gained by re-purposing some in-game abilities? Is it worth having those formations at the expense of all the deleted animations?

Thanks!

**Dresden** · December 31, 2014, 01:11 PM

The main reason this is done is so that the AI will use the formation abilities, specifically hoplite formation.

**rjacko10** · January 01, 2015, 03:50 AM

"We tried using pike phalanx instead, but of course they are set to be a very slow moving and different type of formation from a hoplite phalanx (they can't charge or engage swiftly, for example)."

I assumed the negatives of a hoplite phalanx was that they are less manoeuvrable, so using pike phalanx traits instead would make sense to me.

Even if it's not historically accurate for hoplite phalanx to behave like a pike phalanx, it still creates a good gameplay mechanic by introducing a trade off for the benefits gained from phalanx being turned on. (for me: gameplay trumps accuracy).

**KAM 2150** · January 01, 2015, 05:37 AM

Pike phalanx for hoplites does not work, AI positiones them in super strange way and their kill/dead ratio does not make sense. When I tested it, my regular hoplites were killing more veteran hoplites, eventhough those veteran hoplites were attacking them from the flanks and had superior stats. Of course both units used this pike hoplite phalanx.

**smoothrich** · January 01, 2015, 08:43 AM

KAM could you release an official submod that adds back in formations for the player? Many of us understand the design balance reasons but would prefer to watch our own units fight in formation for visual enjoyment and whatnot

**KAM 2150** · January 01, 2015, 09:19 AM

No because it would require comlete redesign of battles! AI WOULD NEVER use hoplite phalanx again you you too! You really want hoplite phalanx that can only work if your units stand still and are not attacked? Vanilla hoplites can only walk, can't attack and disband phalanx as soon as combat starts.

**rjacko10** · January 01, 2015, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by KAM 2150

Pike phalanx for hoplites does not work, AI positiones them in super strange way and their kill/dead ratio does not make sense.

Thanks for info KAM - apologies for being a pain by asking you to explain your decisions. I've just realised that you've probably thought very hard about what can be done with the game and have arrived at the best solution.

Keep up the great work. Love v1.0

**KAM 2150** · January 01, 2015, 09:49 AM

No problem buddy

**smoothrich** · January 01, 2015, 10:00 AM

Agreed vanilla hoplite formations suck but other modders and myself often tweaked it to enable moving in phalanx mode and random combat bonuses and such. However every patch creates bizarre bugs and just today read that hilarious ai cycle charge bug.

Just sad it looks like DEI gave up fixing formation behavior for shield walls and hoplites when even stealing pike wall looks better, despite weird combat bugs.

Formation attack alone as a formation choice is kinda limited but also buggy. I always thought formation attack should function more like bracing or charging toggle instead as a solution to hoplites shield walls etc

**KAM 2150** · January 01, 2015, 10:08 AM

We gave up? You do understand that we tried to fix it for past half year, right? It is not like many of us dedicated lots (in my case at least 10) hours just to discover it can't be fixed so far. So what that pike phalanx looks better if it makes battles unplaybale, for reasons I mentioned above.

It is not like we don't what do to anything, we simply made a compromise and made this damn formation at least work as it should, over how fancy it looks.

**smoothrich** · January 01, 2015, 12:24 PM

Yeah I respect your efforts and like the mod more annoyed at engine limitations. But employing cool looking animations is a fun part of playing so adding or tweaking something for it would be cool in a future patch or a fan mod.

**KAM 2150** · January 01, 2015, 12:39 PM

Well, I haven't said the last word on that matter

In general, I though I found the solution, but it caused another bug. The deal is that, after patch 14 shieldwall animation, if used for AI units the way we added it (so AI actually makes use out of it), caused AI units to constantly turn formation on and off which allowed them to chargé again and again. Then I though what if I make hoplite formation a permanent formation, so it could not be turned off. Here is where it gets really weird. Yes, it was impossible to turn it off for the player, but AI...could turn if off for like a mili second, this caused AI to turn on/off formation dozen of times per second. Only sometimes AI would march in shield wall without this bug, but then it would start all over. I don't know how it is possible for AI to turn if off, because I added it in the same way as stamina button.

**Dresden** · January 01, 2015, 02:24 PM

After patch 14 Litharion and I spent about 4 days on this problem. Our best solution was to remove the animation and change hoplite spacing to what it is now.

It isn't perfect but its the best we can do for now.

Perhaps instead of posting here you can post on CA's forums and ask why their AI hoplites don't use their own vanilla formations in combat? Even after releasing a mini-campaign that features only hoplites?

**stevehoos** · January 01, 2015, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Dresden

After patch 14 Litharion and I spent about 4 days on this problem. Our best solution was to remove the animation and change hoplite spacing to what it is now.

It isn't perfect but its the best we can do for now.

Perhaps instead of posting here you can post on CA's forums and ask why their AI hoplites don't use their own vanilla formations in combat? Even after releasing a mini-campaign that features only hoplites?

He would get brought up on thought crime charges....